Date   

Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

Originally sent to Paul and slightly revised

Paul kidger wrote:
--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, bob gillis <robertgillis@...> wrote:
Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?
bob gillis
If I may be permitted to add my 2 euro cents worth and apologies if this has been mentionned somewhere else, I have always viewed the choice of low frequency AC as coming from a combination of two factors. Firstly there is the advantages of high voltage AC to minimise transmission losses and the ability to convert to a suitable
motor voltage by a transformer. I assume that motor volts are something in the order of 1000 Volts in order to keep the insulation
of reasonable thickness.
Secondly there is the aspectof control. AC motors (at the time) tended to be fixed speed machines, which when constructed with multiple poles would operate at 2 or 3 fixed speeds .
Th fixed speed motors were 2 or three phase motors. They may have been
wound rotor motors rather than simple induction motors, to reduce the
starting current. Regular induction motors can accelerate from a stand
still to operating speed.

Good control can be had from using the commutator motor with resistor
banks. These are more commonly associated with DC but will operate on AC, as in several domestic appliances.
Single phase lines had to use this type of motor.


However with large commutator motors, arcing becomes a problem at 50
Hz or 60 Hz. This arcing is reduced at lower frequencies, hence to choice of 25 Hz and 16.66 Hz. Others have explained the reason for 16.66 Hz as 1/3 of standard 50 Hz.
I would imagine that with the advent of electronic controls, where effectively the current is dissassembled then reassembled into the frequency and waveform needed to give control of the much simpler AC
traction motors, it won't be too long before some of the low frequency AC systems are converted to standard frequency, in order to
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs. On the 'down side'this will mean the end of running 'heritage' stock not having electronic controls.
It is not so much control as it is power conversion. The AC power in
rectified into DC, then chopped to a variable frequency AC which drives
the induction traction motors.

Here in the northeast states, the former New Haven RR between north
of NYC to New Haven CT has been converted to 60 Hz, The recent AMTRAK
electrification from New Haven CT to Boston is also 60Hz. New Jersey
Transit converted the 3000 V DC Lackawanna electrification to 25 KV 60 H
as well as part of the line along the Jersey Shore, the North Jersey coast line.

So the AMTRAK line from New York to Washington DC and Harrisburg PA and
the SEPTA suburban lines out of Philadelphia are the only ones left at 11
Kv, 25 Hz.

AMTRAK does not have the funds to convert the main line and the US
government has been reluctant to fund even more important improvements.
All new electric locos and multiple unit cars are are AC-DC-AC no
matter what the line frequency.

The cost of converting the Swiss rail electrification fro 16.7 to 50 Hz
would be huge. As long as the existing system is well maintained.
savings of the change would not be worth the cost. As older parts of
the system wear out they probably could be converted piecemeal.

H�l�na would like NJT. Because of the voltage and frequency changes on
some through lines, NJT has standardized on locomotive hauled sets. The
locos can change the transformer settings while in motion but the MU
cars have to be changed in the shop. Putting the equipment in the MU
cars to allow changing each car's transformer in motion is too
complicated, takes too much room and is too expensive.

bob gillis


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

Bill Bolton
 

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:15:56 +0200, Markus wrote:

Just a few facts:
- 16.7 Hz grid is single phase, 50 Hz is three phase
The number of phases has nothing to do with frequency per se.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Re: Old stock

gordonwis
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "Krist van Besien"
<krist.vanbesien@...> wrote:

Last Sunday I had to board a train in a small place Burgundy. The
place was a railfan's > paradise. Staffed station, oldfashioned
procedures. Lots of freight traffic. > I think I know however why I
was the only passenger on the train, and it probably has a > lot to
do with the railway not finding becoming "progressive and efficient"
that important.



That is a harsh view of current French practice. The regionalisation
of French local services has massively changed the outlook for
passengers. The passenger service to Is sur Tille is much better than
it once was.

One must never lose sight of the demography of France which is very
different to Switzerland. France has a much lower population spread
over a much larger land area than most other European countries.
There simply is not the population in some areas to warrant a more
frequent service. Is sur Tille and the rest of Burgundy are
comparatively sparsely populated; its density is half of that of
France as a whole.

The facts:
Burgundy is 31,600 square km with a population of 1.6 million
Switzerland is 41,000 square km with a population of 7.5 million



those railfans (all three of them) for whom only loco hauled trains
are worth

Ahem - there are more than three people on this forum (let alone
elsewhere) who prefer trains to be loco hauled! And by that I mean
long distance trains should be loco hauled - I have no complaint
against local services being unit - what is not attractive to
passengers is using local-configuration unit trains on long distances
as some UK and French services are now.


FLIRTS vs Voralpen....was New Stock

Heléna Moretti
 

Hello again everybody,
 
I think the point I was making needs to be clarified, I understand Krist would quite happily catch a FLIRT from Arth to Biberbrugg and a NINA from Spiez to Frutigen, the logic of replacing old multiple units and Re4/4" and EW I stock with FLIRTS is not lost on me. I can see the attraction of replacing old time-worn seating with new low-floor versions however would he be equally happy taking his family out from Genéve to St Gallen on a FLIRT all the way?
 
The point I was trying to make with FLIRTS on the Voralpen duties is that they are designed for, and present an image and comfort relevant to local, mass-transit markets not to long-distance and leisure markets. Would you replace Re460 on the Basel - Locarno stoppers with FLIRTS ? I think the SOB have spent a lot of effort setting the Voralpen Express service up as their limited-stop, high quality end of the market, to introduce FLIRTS on it makes it anonymous amongst its other FLIRT operated services, it just appears and feels like a limited-stop commuter train.
 
The Swiss rail network has the largest %age of leisure travellers than anyother european country, its trains continue to run with good loadings all day due to the large numbers of foreign visitors from all nations. However these people need room for cases, want a view and more importantly expect a level of comfort that you don't get wth mass-transit multiple units, or even Re4/4" with EW I stock.
 
I work for a company that brings over 8,000 visitors to Switzerland every year, we run railway based holidays and the trains are an integral part of the holiday. We would not use FLIRTS to transit our customers, in other countries where this approach has applied, we have sadly hired coaches to transfer our passengers, the accomodation in FLIRTS is not suitable for the leisure market. The decision of BLS to use NINA units is leaving us with a similar dilemma now in Switzerland and FLIRTS will be met with the same response, we will remove our business.
 
That is what I am saying, yes, for sure, I would love SBB & BLS to cater for the rail enthusiasts with some Re6/6 or Ae6/6 operated services, and yes, they would attract a large travelling market from not just the UK. BUT for the day to operation of a tax-supported railway, money is key and FLIRTS are a sensible replacement to older multiple unit stock. They are NOT however a good replacement for the Voralpen Express.
 
For the bashers, here's what I would do......
 
SBB Re4/4" cascade the current high-mileage series I machines with younger, ex-Cargo versions to reduce the risk of breakdowns. Reduce the Re4/4" passenger fleet to a core and hire in Cargo machines to supplement at the busy times, these are usually a perfect match for the Cargo quiet times, weekends and summer.
Diagram an Ae6/6 to work the summer only Zurich-Chur service (that connects with the Engadin Star & Bernina Express), ideally it should come off a Limmatal freight diagram so it is fresh every day (i.e. a new number) and even better could swop during the day with the Ae6/6 that works local freight around the Chur area.
During the ferragosto (Italian August break) the Cargo traffic over the Gotthard is a fraction of its usual amount, yet passenger demand is at its highest with religious festivals and summer tourists, why not run reliefs to the new ICN, ETR610 hauled fixed-formation sets using Re6/6.
Well, they won't happen because Cargo and Passenger divisions see themselves as seperate entities and not just from an accounting point of view. The sight of forty spare locomotives at Bellinzona in August will continue alongside crowded trains as they just don't want to get on anymore....but that's another issue.
Cheerio
Heléna


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

Manfred Luckmann
 

Am 11.09.2008 09:06, Paul kidger schrieb:
However,surely when the supply system for a line become life expired
and due for renewal (not necessarily restricted to Switzerland), one
of the factors to be considered in the project evaluation must be a
possible conversion to 50 Hz, especially if all of the stock has 50
Hz capability. It is the one rare opportunity to make the change. Yes
there are advantages and disadvantages and it is the art of the
project team to make the right long-term decission based on a
judgement of all of the facts.This is possibly summed up as 'Costs vs
Benefits'. An example is the NS where the decission was made to start
a rolling programme of 25 kV 50 Hz to replace the 1500 V DC because
of supply problems associated with high current 1500 V systems.
One major disadvantage is the fact that 40 Hz systems are 3-phase.
alls 3 phases of the system should carry a similar load, so you have
to have lots of breaks (i.e. powerless sections) to separate the phases.
The european railways 16,7 HZ net is single phase an runs syncronous
(at least in D, A, CH - the scandinavian 16,7 Hz net has no direct
connection to the central eurpean net) and needs no breaks.

I must admit that I didn't realise that the 16.7 Hz system forms a
separate grid system in Switzerland. This also must represent an
additional operating cost, which may or may not be justified in the
interests of maintaining a supply independent from the national grid.
I wonder what the situation is in other 16.7 Hz countries.
The same holds for Germany and Austria


Manfred


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

Kidger Paul
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "Markus" <guerbetaler@...> wrote:
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs.
This has been discussed recently and the answer was a simple NO.
It is too expensive, doesn't produce real advantages but destroys
all advantages that exist. Just a few facts:
- 16.7 Hz grid is single phase, 50 Hz is three phase
- separate high-voltage grid means independence
- 16.7 Hz has other influences than 50 Hz
- The last locomotives with 16.7 Hz motors were delivered
in 1985. Their economic life ends around 2035.
- for some new TGV lines SNCF built a separate high-voltage
grill in 50 Hz!

Just a few hints ...

Markus, Gürbetal

Markus
My comments regarding conversion of the 16.7 Hz systems to 50 hz, was
meant to be speculative rather than a definitive statement of what
will happen. I really didn't propose the SBB change to 50 Hz in one
massive disruptive project.

However,surely when the supply system for a line become life expired
and due for renewal (not necessarily restricted to Switzerland), one
of the factors to be considered in the project evaluation must be a
possible conversion to 50 Hz, especially if all of the stock has 50
Hz capability. It is the one rare opportunity to make the change. Yes
there are advantages and disadvantages and it is the art of the
project team to make the right long-term decission based on a
judgement of all of the facts.This is possibly summed up as 'Costs vs
Benefits'. An example is the NS where the decission was made to start
a rolling programme of 25 kV 50 Hz to replace the 1500 V DC because
of supply problems associated with high current 1500 V systems.

As I stated, with the ability of electronics to disassemble and
reassemble current into virtually any form you want, the form of the
supply current becomes much less important than in the past. It has
effectively broken the tie between supply current to match the needs
of the motors and controls which has up until recently dictated the
type of supply current. Therefore the supply system can be designed
more in isolation with minimising capital costs and running costs,
including losses.I think that the 50 kV supply system now in use on
the SNCF and parts of the UK shows this.

I must admit that I didn't realise that the 16.7 Hz system forms a
separate grid system in Switzerland. This also must represent an
additional operating cost, which may or may not be justified in the
interests of maintaining a supply independent from the national grid.
I wonder what the situation is in other 16.7 Hz countries.

No doubt this debate will continue.

Paul Kidger


Re: Old stock

Krist van Besien
 

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:29 PM, The Doctor <yahoo1@gbrail.org.uk> wrote:

Krist van Besien wrote:

I think I know however why I was the only passenger on the train, and it
probably has a lot to do with the railway not finding becoming "progressive
and efficient" that important. I think that if the service was composed of
half hourly flirts in stead of a handful loco hauled trains a day that it
might be more popular.
Why not have half-hourly modern loco-hauled trains? A regular service
with a loco-hauled train which can be re-formed to cater for demand
seems the best way forward to me.
Provided you have a money tree, which doesn't exist in the real world.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
--
A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

Guerbetaler
 

Paul kidger wrote:
I would imagine that with the advent of electronic controls, where
effectively the current is dissassembled then reassembled into the
frequency and waveform needed to give control of the much simpler AC
traction motors, it won't be too long before some of the low
frequency AC systems are converted to standard frequency, in order to
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs.
This has been discussed recently and the answer was a simple NO.
It is too expensive, doesn't produce real advantages but destroys
all advantages that exist. Just a few facts:
- 16.7 Hz grid is single phase, 50 Hz is three phase
- separate high-voltage grid means independence
- 16.7 Hz has other influences than 50 Hz
- The last locomotives with 16.7 Hz motors were delivered
in 1985. Their economic life ends around 2035.
- for some new TGV lines SNCF built a separate high-voltage
grill in 50 Hz!

Just a few hints ...

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

Guerbetaler
 

bob gillis wrote:
If anyone else would like to see the reply I can post to the group if
Markus concurs.
Please post it, I am interested as well.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: Old stock

bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

Max Wyss wrote:
Why not have half-hourly modern loco-hauled trains? A regular service with a loco-hauled train which can be re-formed to cater for demand seems the best way forward to me.
Well, most operators (worldwide) for whom such dense operation is an
issue, have come to the conclusion that shunting and handling loco-hauled trains is more expensive than using fixed consist units that can run in multiple. The compromise is the SBB concept of loco-powered push-pull sets with "modules" consisting of a cab car plus a specific number of additional cars.
New Jersey Transit has many trains withe a loco and a specific number of
cars including a cab car, usually 8 or 10, They hardly ever add or
subtract cars from a consist. Never during the day and not usually on
weekends or holidays. The unused cars are not open if not in service.

It is cheaper to spend the money on the the electricity than on the
switchmen needed to add or subtract cars.

While a train may usually run with half the cars open and occupied, if there is a baseball, hockey or basketball game in NYC, th train can be crowded. For instance a hockey game usually ends about 9:15 and on my line the next train leaves at 9:38; but if it goes into overtime, the 10:38 train would be the crowded one. NJT cannot foresee when games end.

The loco hauled consists are used on the dual voltage/frequency lines. The Northeast Corridor trains between NYC and Trenton are mostly MUs as that is one voltage and frequency and the MUs accelerate faster than the loco hauled trains.

bob gillis


Re: Old stock

Max Wyss
 

Why not have half-hourly modern loco-hauled trains? A regular service
with a loco-hauled train which can be re-formed to cater for demand
seems the best way forward to me.
Well, most operators (worldwide) for whom such dense operation is an
issue, have come to the conclusion that shunting and handling
loco-hauled trains is more expensive than using fixed consist units
that can run in multiple. The compromise is the SBB concept of
loco-powered push-pull sets with "modules" consisting of a cab car
plus a specific number of additional cars.

Keep in mind that re-forming a train "to cater for demand" is kind of
moot if the consist remains fixed most of the time. And there are
always possibilities to cater for demand.

Also keep in mind that locomotive shunting may require a higher number
of (rather expensive) locomotives than push-pull service, and having a
slightly higher number of E/DMUs to accomodate costs even less.

Yes, I agree that a loco-hauled train looks more like a train than a
set of EMUs... But, it is not efficient operation.

Max.


Re: Old stock

Rob V
 

Krist van Besien wrote:

I think I know however why I was the only passenger on the train, and it
probably has a lot to do with the railway not finding becoming "progressive
and efficient" that important. I think that if the service was composed of
half hourly flirts in stead of a handful loco hauled trains a day that it
might be more popular.
Why not have half-hourly modern loco-hauled trains? A regular service
with a loco-hauled train which can be re-formed to cater for demand
seems the best way forward to me.

Cheers,
--
Rob
http://www.uicstock.org.uk/


Re: Old stock

Krist van Besien
 

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Heléna Moretti <
helena.moretti@btinternet.com> wrote:

For many visiting lovers of Swiss railways, the sight of the SOB
dropping and adding coaches at Romanshorn in a 7 minute turn-round, or the
446 dropping on the back at Arth is one facet that attracts us to your
country. The affection we hold for your nation's railways, brings us over in
droves, taking photos, buying swiss passes, staying in your hotels. The
FLIRT, ICN revolution (& RhB units or motor coaches) is chipping away at the
image, I do hope you don't lose it completely in your haste to have a
progressive and efficient railway.



Last Sunday I had to board a train in a small place Burgundy. The place was
a railfan's paradise. Staffed station, oldfashioned procedures. Lots of
freight traffic. While I was there a freight train crew uncoupled from it's
rake to go and rescue a stranded passenger train (on which I had been the
only passenger...) and tow it back to the station. They then coupled on the
freight again, and the station master signaled them with a green staff that
they could leave... I found it all fascinating, and as I was not in a hurry
didn't mind much that I'd eventually would arrive in Belgium two hours
late.

I think I know however why I was the only passenger on the train, and it
probably has a lot to do with the railway not finding becoming "progressive
and efficient" that important. I think that if the service was composed of
half hourly flirts in stead of a handful loco hauled trains a day that it
might be more popular.

I'm a railfan, but I'm also a public transport user and a tax payer. Waiting
for the next train in Is-sur-Tille I realized how spoiled we are in
Switzerland with our modern railway system. Of course you loose some, and
those railfans (al three of them) for whom only loco hauled trains are worth
riding on might not come back to Switzerland. I don't think that this should
be a factor in the decision which rolling stock to use on which services.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
--
A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

I sen Paul Kidger a rather long reply to his mesage which started with:

If I may be permitted to add my 2 euro cents worth and apologies if this has been mentionned somewhere else, I have always viewed the choice of low frequency AC as coming from a combination of two factors.
If anyone else would like to see the reply I can post to the group if Markus concurs.

Some SwissRail content in my reply.

bob gillis


Re: Suggestions Wanted

gordonwis
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "benline47457" <benline47457@...>
wrote:

Hi Bill,

Just a thought, but I would personally tend to steer clear of the
Glacier and Bernina Expresses (they are in reality little more than a
gimmick to part wealthy tourists from their money) - a supplement is
payable over and above the normal fare, and you can enjoy all the
same views and experience from normal service trains.
Hooray - you can join my 'glacier express sceptics' club. Following the
GEx anniversary celebrations the other year I had a letter published in
Today's railways pointing out that it is actually just as quick in most
instances to use the non Glacier Express - and you get to see real
local life rather than being cocooned


Re: OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.

Kidger Paul
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, bob gillis <robertgillis@...> wrote:

Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial
frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?

bob gillis
If I may be permitted to add my 2 euro cents worth and apologies if
this has been mentionned somewhere else, I have always viewed the
choice of low frequency AC as coming from a combination of two
factors.
Firstly there is the advantages of high voltage AC to minimise
transmission losses and the ability to convert to a suitable motor
voltage by a transformer. I assume that motor volts are something in
the order of 1000 Volts in order to keep the insulation of reasonable
thickness.

Secondly there is the aspectof control. AC motors (at the time)
tended to be fixed speed machines, which when constructed with
multiple poles would operate at 2 or 3 fixed speeds . Good control
can be had from using the commutator motor with resistor banks. These
are more commonly associated with DC but will operate on AC, as in
several domestic appliances. However with large commutator motors,
arcing becomes a problem at 50 Hz or 60 Hz. This arcing is reduced at
lower frequencies, hence to choice of 25 Hz and 16.66 Hz. Others have
explained the reason for 16.66 Hz as 1/3 of standard 50 Hz.

I would imagine that with the advent of electronic controls, where
effectively the current is dissassembled then reassembled into the
frequency and waveform needed to give control of the much simpler AC
traction motors, it won't be too long before some of the low
frequency AC systems are converted to standard frequency, in order to
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs. On
the 'down side'this will mean the end of running 'heritage' stock not
having electronic controls.

Paul Kidger


Re: Suggestions Wanted

benline47457
 

Hi Bill,

Just a thought, but I would personally tend to steer clear of the
Glacier and Bernina Expresses (they are in reality little more than a
gimmick to part wealthy tourists from their money) - a supplement is
payable over and above the normal fare, and you can enjoy all the
same views and experience from normal service trains.

That said, the Albula line and Bernina line (along with Chur - Arosa,
Landquart - Davos, Samedan - Scuol, and Davos - Filisur) are
absolutely beautiful and well worth a visit (although to be fair that
could be said about a lot of routes in Switzerland)! The RhB network
is excellent - like a proper main line but in minature - also I do
really rate their Ge6/6 II (700 class) locos in a big way.

As my interest is bashing (certain types of) locos rather than routes
as such, my next visit to Switzerland in October will be to
Interlaken for a final fling on the Re4/4s of the BLS before they are
displaced by units later in the year. I don't think you mentioned
where you hail from but at present there is a special offer on the
Swiss Tourist Centre website for the benefit of UK and Ireland
passengers - you can buy a 1st Class Swiss Pass for the price of a
2nd Class.

Anyway, I am sure you will find plenty to entertain yourself in your
4 free days.

Regards,

David
http://www.davids-railway-photos.fotopic.net/


A few more Swiss pictures.

Ron Fisher <randv.fisher@...>
 

If anyone is interested to have a look, I have recently added a few
more Swiss railway pictures to my Fotopic website.
they are in the 'Stop Press! collection for new pictures at the moment,
and here's the link :

http://ronfisher2.fotopic.net/c1099919.html

In a couple of weeks or so I shall transfer them to their permanent
home in the 'Graubünden 2003' collection; they will then be here :

http://ronfisher.fotopic.net/c1440356.html

Hope that they are of interest.

Ron Fisher.


Swiss Express Re 4/4"

Martin Baumann <all@...>
 

An unconfirmed report on a German forum states that locos 11108 11109 and 11141 will be overhauled in Bellinzona and retained in service. This is so far just a rumour and bear in mind that 11141 is officially withdrawn

11109 worked train 179 1709 Zurich HB-Chiasso today September 8th


Re: Suggestions Wanted

Willem Aleva
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <marklintalk@...> wrote:

I am going to have about four free days around the middle of
October.

My meeting will end on Thursday evening so I will have Friday
through
Monday to myself. Then I fly out of Zurich on Tuesday.

My thoughts are to take the Golden Pass to Luzern and then a train
to
Chur and then ride the Bernina Express round trip.

Another option would be to take the Glacier Express to Chur and
then
do the Bernina Express.

If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Vielen Dank,

Bill
Hello Bill
what I could suggest is a lovely route - which people tend to forget:
the original route Luzern-Wolhusen-Langnau-Konolfingen-Bern.
Through Emmental and along the river by regio express. I made this
journey last summer and I realy like it. Rolling stock: BLS Re 420.5
+ EW iii coaches (sometimes BLS EW i stock + two hired SBB cars KlB).

Good luck,
Willem Aleva

with my swiss saver flexi pass I 've travelled almost everywhere. If
you want more suggestions, give a shout
(or visit:
http://www24.brinkster.com/aleva000 ;
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Album=PETAO3TV
)

18161 - 18180 of 29205