Date   

re : gauge changing stock

glenn allen
 

________________________________



 
The gauge change technique has been used for years on the France - Spain
border between standard and broad gauge.

The Welsh slate mines used it back in the late 1800's ;-)
double flanged wheels loose on an axle on variable gauge track.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

Fionnbarr Kennedy
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, JSScherrer@... wrote:

Thanks for your answer.

I am looking for "Swiss inventions" in railroading and this
"gauge changing" method appears to be one. Can you confirm
that and point me to the source or the description of that
invention, or method.

Railway Update

http://www.minirex.ch/pdf/anzeigen/railwayupdate.pdf

had a very good article on this (and indeed many other Swiss rail innovations (the articles are often written by the developers/innovators themselves). No connection with them, I'm just a satisfied subscriber!

Regards
Fionnbarr
www.fionnbarr.com


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

George Raymond
 

My understanding was that if/when the proposed gauge changing stock is
introduced then the GP services will run from Montreux to Luzern
throughout with the same stock.
It can not achieve this. Trains from Interlaken to Luzern need to be
fully rack-fitted (i.e. all coaches engage the rack, not just the loco!)
for braking purposes. With the gauge-change system, there is no way the
cog can be fitted to the stock. Montreux to Interlaken, then change to a
second train!
In any case, I have read that only a small proportion of travellers want to
go directly from Montreux to Luzern; most want to stop in Interlaken, and
the Jungfrau Region surely wants to keep it that way.

George


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

Max Wyss
 

It can not achieve this. Trains from Interlaken to Luzern need to be
fully rack-fitted (i.e. all coaches engage the rack, not just the loco!)
for braking purposes. With the gauge-change system, there is no way the
cog can be fitted to the stock. Montreux to Interlaken, then change to a
second train!
Actually, the Brünig grades allow a certain number of coaches not to
be equipped with braking cogs. However, at the moment, the
gauge-changing bogie is complicated enough, so that the provision for
braking cogs is not included. From the way the system works, it would,
however, be somehow possible to include braking cogs.

Max.


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

Max Wyss
 

The gauge change technique has been used for years on the France - Spain
border between standard and broad gauge.
This technology is specific to the Talgo system, and has indeed been
successfully used for more than 40 years.


The Swiss have adapted the principle to their needs!
Indeed, for a relatively bigger change of gauge. Also part of the
adaptation is a change of the floor level above rail surface. And they
are working with bogies, whereas Talgo has single wheelsets.

The Japanese system is also between standard gauge (1435 mm) and
narrow gauge (10'67 mm), and in addition set up for high speeds.


Tilting trains were first played with in the UK in the mid to late 70's.
The Advanced Passenger Train (APT) was developed by British Rail but was
never a success; the Italians took the technology and made it work in
their Pendolino!
The APT was indeed an early development, using active tilting. Talgo
also has tilting, but what we call passive. The Talog system has been
around and successful for some 30 years now. Also, the SNCF had an
experimental vehicle in the early 70s with passive tilting, but that
was essentially a proof of concept, and never made it farther.

The tilting system by Fiat (now Alstom) is using hydraulic actuators.
The Swiss contribution to tilting comes from SIG (nowadays also
Alstom), but uses electromechanical actuators. The SIG system is an
evolution of the cannon stabilizer for tanks, and it is in use in the
Swiss ICN, and if I remember correctly in the British Virgin
Pentolini.

To be complete, there are also Japanese tilting trains, some active,
some passive, some using "active suspension". All seem to be pretty
successful, and they lead to considerable travel time reduction on the
classical (narrow gauge) network.

Max.


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

+GF+ <ce68iii@...>
 

Don't forget the Swedish X2000 tilt train. I believe it was working before the Italians and the Swiss got theirs working....



+GF+

Politics is the art of preventing people from taking part in affairs which properly concern them.


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

JSScherrer@...
 

Has anyone done a cost benefit comparison of changing the rail vs changing
the loks and stock?



Regards,

Jim Scherrer
Scherrer Resources, Inc.
Technology Center
120 Arrandale Boulevard
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
JScherrer@WebAlly.com


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

JSScherrer@...
 

Thanks so much for your information.

I am in charge of an event entitled "Celebration of Swiss Train Technology"
for August 11, 2012, Saturday. I need your help. This is a worldwide
event. On that day skype cameras will be directed at any swiss-rooted train
technologies, worldwide. I invite anyone who can wishes to be an advisor (tell
us what is in fact was invented by a swiss person) (mallet, abt, etc.) and
or would you like to be involved, can you put a skype camera on this
"devise, artifact, invention) on that day. We expect thousands of people
worldwide to participate and they are eager to see anything, and everything about
Swiss train technologies. The Swiss are known to "punch high" in many areas,
and their small number, big impact citizenry has been exemplary in Train
technology. (trouble is I don't know enough about this and need your help).

I can't do this by myself and our group of leaders continues to grow.

Open this link, wait 20 seconds, and read this document. We seek more
specificity and accuracy in the identification of true swiss train inventions
and exactly where they have been expressed in actual train technologies,
worldwide.

_http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4176942/Train%20Event/A%20Celebration%20of%20Swiss%
20Railroad%20Train%20Technology.doc_
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4176942/Train%20Event/A%20Celebration%20of%20Swiss%20Railroad%20Train%20Technology.doc)

Great to chat with you.

Call anytme.

Regards,

Jim Scherrer
Bundesbrief Society
120 Arrandale Boulevard
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
_JScherrer@WebAlly.com_ (mailto:JScherrer@WebAlly.com)

_www.bundesbrief.org_ (http://www.bundesbrief.org)


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

john_dmj
 

On 17/02/2012 17:17, Mark Pichowicz wrote:


How will the Golden Pass services work with the new units? My
understanding was that if/when the proposed gauge changing stock is
introduced then the GP services will run from Montreux to Luzern
throughout with the same stock. Surely this would still require loco
haulage between Interlaken and Luzern in the same way as now, so
perhaps continued work for the HGe 101s.
It can not achieve this. Trains from Interlaken to Luzern need to be
fully rack-fitted (i.e. all coaches engage the rack, not just the loco!)
for braking purposes. With the gauge-change system, there is no way the
cog can be fitted to the stock. Montreux to Interlaken, then change to a
second train!

J


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

john_dmj
 

Yes, this is a very Swiss invention and descriptions are available from
MOB GoldenPass Services and from Prose.
<http://www.prose.ch/en/3/6/2/759/764/?>
Gauge-Changing Bogie – EV 09 (downloadable as PDF)
The gauge change technique has been used for years on the France - Spain
border between standard and broad gauge.

The Swiss have adapted the principle to their needs!

Tilting trains were first played with in the UK in the mid to late 70's.
The Advanced Passenger Train (APT) was developed by British Rail but was
never a success; the Italians took the technology and made it work in
their Pendolino!

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Tilting trains

George Raymond
 

Is "tilting train" also a Swiss invention?
If I may make a constructive suggestion: You might want to do some general
research on this topic (starting with a web search for "tilting train") and
then post here again if you have more specific questions.

George


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

JSScherrer@...
 

Is "tilting train" also a Swiss invention?

Is Prose the inventor?

Regards,


Jim Scherrer, CEO
Scherrer Resources, Inc.

120 Arrandale Boulevard
Technology Center
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
JScherrer@WebAlly.com


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 17.02.2012 21:40, schrieb JSScherrer@aol.com:
I am looking for "Swiss inventions" in railroading and this
"gauge changing" method appears to be one. Can you confirm
that and point me to the source or the description of that
invention, or method.
Yes, this is a very Swiss invention and descriptions are available from MOB GoldenPass Services and from Prose.
<http://www.prose.ch/en/3/6/2/759/764/?>
Gauge-Changing Bogie – EV 09 (downloadable as PDF)

Search for "Ecartement variable" if you want to get more.

It says that MOB was the inventor; in what way did they invent
it and how does it differ from Japan or Italy/or others.
Let me start with telling you what it has in commom with Spanish and Japanese systems: It allows a rail vehicle to run on two different gauges and to switch over in an automated process. Dot.

The EV 09 bogie is a completely different idea and well adapted for lightweight narrow gauge coaches running at low speeds. Not having axles it might be problematic on straight track at higher speeds. The Japanese system is for self-propelled high speed trains and the Spanish Talgo system was first developed for pulled stock with gauge change 1668 - 1435 mm and quite high speeds.

And if I say that MOB was the inventor I can say that I know the name of the employee who did it. Thus MOB has all the rights to use and develop it.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

JSScherrer@...
 

Thanks for your answer.

I am looking for "Swiss inventions" in railroading and this
"gauge changing" method appears to be one. Can you confirm
that and point me to the source or the description of that
invention, or method.

This is the official designation of the project for gauge
changing bogies for the TransGoldenPass line from Montreux
(meter gauge 1000 mm) via Zweisimmen to (standard gauge 1435 mm)
Interlaken Ost. The bogie was invented by MOB and developed
by Prose. The bogie doesn't have axles.

It says that MOB was the inventor; in what way did they invent
it and how does it differ from Japan or Italy/or others.

Regards,


Jim Scherrer, CEO
Scherrer Resources, Inc.

120 Arrandale Boulevard
Technology Center
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
_JScherrer@WebAlly.com_ (mailto:JScherrer@WebAlly.com)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: gauge changing stock, was: ZB unit invasion starts

Guerbetaler
 

Am 17.02.2012 20:32, schrieb JSScherrer@aol.com:
I had no idea there was such a thing as "gauge changing stock".
Does that exist anywhere now?
Is that a Swiss-invented Technology?
Three automated systems exist, one (Talgo of Spain) is in daily operation, the Swiss system (Ecartement variable) should be ready in about four years. I don't have more information about the Japanese system.

<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Automated_gauge_changing>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge>

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 17.02.2012 11:39, schrieb Krist van Besien:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Guerbetaler
<muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de> wrote:

4 7-car-units for the hourly IR trains
Looking at the timetable tells me that they need at least 5 consists
for this service. Won't they be permanently short a unit this way? Or
do they expect to speed the service up enough so that they can make do
with four consists?
Investments are on the way to allow a timetable with 4 consists, say a journey time of less than two hours. The stop in Merinigen will then be much shorter.

Maintenance planning must then allow to have all four sets available during the main season. On a grey November day, a 3-car-unit will do...

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 17.02.2012 18:17, schrieb Mark Pichowicz:
How will the Golden Pass services work with the new units? My
understanding was that if/when the proposed gauge changing stock is
introduced then the GP services will run from Montreux to Luzern
throughout with the same stock. Surely this would still require loco
haulage between Interlaken and Luzern in the same way as now, so
perhaps continued work for the HGe 101s.
MOB gauge change bogies are not fitted with cogwheel. A gauge change installation is only planned for Zweisimmen.

Also, although I see the potential improvement for passengers with
not having to change stock in this proposal, time wise I would
imagine that drawing the stock slowly through the gauge changing
mechanism and then performing a loco change (I assume loks wont be
able to change gauge) at both Zweisimmen and Interlaken would take
longer than the current very efficient across platform train changes
for passengers, thus slowing down the service overall.
Furthermore, Interlaken is an important point for international travellers. Most of them stop over in the Jungfrau region and only then continue to Luzern (or Montreux, if coming from Luzern).

In a frist step, moning and evening trains start and end in Interlaken. In between they will only go as far as Spiez, where Connections to IC and EC services are made.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

JSScherrer@...
 

I had no idea there was such a thing as "gauge changing stock".
Does that exist anywhere now?
Is that a Swiss-invented Technology?

Regards,


Jim Scherrer
International Bundesbrief Society
120 Arrandale Boulevard
Technology Center
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
_JScherrer@WebAlly.com_ (mailto:JScherrer@WebAlly.com)
_www.Bundesbrief.org_ (http://www.Bundesbrief.org)


Re: ZB unit invasion starts

Mark Pichowicz
 

How will the Golden Pass services work with the new units? My understanding was that if/when the proposed gauge changing stock is introduced then the GP services will run from Montreux to Luzern throughout with the same stock. Surely this would still require loco haulage between Interlaken and Luzern in the same way as now, so perhaps continued work for the HGe 101s.

Also, although I see the potential improvement for passengers with not having to change stock in this proposal, time wise I would imagine that drawing the stock slowly through the gauge changing mechanism and then performing a loco change (I assume loks wont be able to change gauge) at both Zweisimmen and Interlaken would take longer than the current very efficient across platform train changes for passengers, thus slowing down the service overall.

Mark


Re: Buchs in May

bty506661
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "timngoodwin" <timngoodwin@...> wrote:

I'll be travelling to Zurich in May and hopefully will have the opportunity to spend an afternoon out with the camera photographing some trains. I have a couple of questions that other members of the group could possible help with:

1) Will the Chur - St. Gallen IR services still be operated by an Re4/4 + carriages in mid-May, or will they by then (or have they already) have switched to multiple unit operation?

2) Is there anything worth seeing in Buchs? By that I mean is there much in terms of loco movements; is it possible to get some shots of OBB locos from on or around the station?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Tim.
Chur - St Gallen IRs were still loco and coaches last week, not heard any impending move for them to not be, though someone may know different.

From passing through Buchs (once) there was a fair bit of freight and loco movements, both light engines and freight, SBB/OBB

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