Date   

Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Krist van Besien
 

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Heléna Moretti
<helena.moretti@btinternet.com> wrote:

Inspector R: Ah, you really need to have a passport with you in future for this ticket to be valid. Now do you have any other form of photo identification, ah yes, a driver's licence, I can see the name on ticket matches the one on that license and that the picture is you. Have a wonderful stay in Switzerland and don't forget to bring your passport with you next time.
Now which Inspector has done the best job for SBB? In the short-term, Inspector K took the old English pair to the cleaners for a CHF350, I bet he felt good.
I don't think he felt good. SBB conductors aren't like that.


Inspector R however has probably ensured that the couple return again, with a potential spend not just of CHF 500 for their passes but also a similar sum in food, twice that in accommodation and more rosy tales of friendly staff amongst the stunning Alpine scenery. These two scenarios reflect the reality of that day, the second scenario was close to that of the guard who checked our tickets as we left Locarno, he accepted alternative documents without problem. The first scenario matched closely the attitude of the guard who checked the tickets as we pulled out of Luzern.

So in the case of the guard when you pulled out of Luzern you offered
alternative documents, and they were not accepted? What were they?
Because I don't think that passports are a requirement to get a Swiss
Pass. Otherwise people without passports couldn't get them. But a
proper photo ID probably is.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

bs177@...
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, tudoryork wrote:

We have known for many years that you should have your passport available at all times when travelling on a Swiss Pass.
Whilst I understand the reasons behind Helena's spirited defence of the two OAP's, I quote from the rear of the map supplied with my Swiss Pass for 2002 "Dear passenger................ Please sign your ticket and present it to the conductor with your passport".

Where I would agree with both Helena and Markus is that the way such situations should be handled needs to be formalised and designed to avoid the PR failures we have heard about.

Firstly (and there is plenty of room on the back of the map - and I am referring to a 2002 map - the 2013 one might be different) it should be stated that the ticket is not valid without the passport, and should state clearly what the penalties are for not having a passport with you.

Secondly, it would seem sensible to adopt the same procedure as with the forgotten GA, if the passenger presents the passport at any ticket office with the excess tickets and the Swiss Pass, the excess fare will be refunded less CHf 5.

Perhaps those with contacts within SBB might suggest this when the map is next reprinted.

Cheers

bruce


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Bill Bolton
 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:13:35 +0100, Krist wrote:

And how should this be done, in your opinion? SBB conductors don't
have lie detectors on them.
You claimed "there are professional fare evaders" as a justification
for the new SBB behaviour.

"Professional" (whether 'professionell', 'fachmännisch' or
'notorisch') implies they are doing it constantly - you don't need a
lie detector to identify *constant evaders* and there are a whole host
of simple processes and technologies that can be applied, *as the
police do regularly* with respect to misdemeanours.

I don't think many ordinary citizens are being unjustly punished here.
It's clear what your strongly-held-belief is, but it also clear from
looking at a number of Swiss community forums that a lot of "ordinary
citizens" (who are trying to hard to abide by the rules) are now being
fined in circumstances beyond their reasonable control.

It's also clear from looking at travel forums that a tourists are
starting to become alienated towards Switzerland through this, as they
think they have followed the directions of SBB adequately (as implied
through web sites and the behaviour of automated ticketing systems,
etc) but are none-the-less being fined by SBB.

Always be very sceptical of what you read in the newspaper or hear on
TV.
Or read recently in community forums, or what good friends recently
tell you etc etc.

The stories that are being related are too pervasive and consistent in
nature to be flicked away with cliches and faux rationalisations ("if
they tell a good story"). <rolls eyes>

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

tudor erich
 

We have known for many years that you should have your passport available at all times when travelling on a Swiss Pass. Several times we have had the full performance of ticket, check the second part, passport, where are you going etc.
 
Never occurred to us not to play by the stated rules.
 
Mind you, given the usual very cursory check of the ticket, often not even looking at it, I have often wondered if proferring a Swiss Pass from a previous trip would satisfy most conductors...
 
Bernard


Re: Re 4/4 II 11116

Heléna Moretti
 

Is the damage severe enough to spell the end of 11116? I must admit, much as I love the Re4/4", they do seem to have a rather bad habit of catching fire. That must be the fourth or fifth that has torched itself to death.

bah! 


________________________________
From: Guerbetaler <muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de>
To: SwissRail@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 16:05
Subject: Re: [SwissRail] Re 4/4 II 11116


 
Am 07.02.2013 12:09, schrieb martinbaumann112:
11116 was damaged by fire at Uznach yesterday while working train
2423 (1440 Luzern-Romanshorn).
... meaning that the locomotive was at the head of the train and the
driver on the loco. (I say this because there had been disputes between
SBB and SOB because of the use of SOB driving trailers with SBB
locomotives.)

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Heléna Moretti
 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Heléna Moretti

helena.moretti@btinternet.com> wrote:
"As for the debate on the strict application of the new penalty fares for Swiss transport users, to place such a rule in the hands of mere mortals is a little unfair of the authorities. They ask their inspectors to judge a stranger or hide behind a rule book when it is plain to see what the easiest course of action is. The aim is to stop fare dodgers and save taxes, the principle that results is that you (as a passenger) are totally responsible for ensuring you have a valid ticket and all the supporting documents you need before you step on a train. The result of strict adherence to the rule and its principles are you alienate many to punish the few".
Krist replied:
"I don't understand what you are getting at with the above paragraph. I think it is very fair to the conductors that they are no longer required to make difficult judgement calls, and can just apply the
rules. Let customers service debate with the passengers. I doubt that the strickt application will alienate many, as people are quite used to having tickets before boarding the train. The rule already existed for local trains".
My point is:...
To explain my point I return to the old couple who I believe were badly treated... for many years it has not been compulsory to take your passport with a Swiss Pass, if it was, it was never enforced. Only recently have ticket staff begun to ask to see them. This old couple had been to Switzerland many times over many years, but not since the introduction of this check. The purpose/aim of the check is to stop the passes being handed between different people, they are "not negotiable", only one person (the one named on the ticket) can use it. The principle is that to ensure this, a valid passport should be produced to show the ticket inspector that the pass and the person belong together. Now let us look at two possible responses a ticket inspector could have to finding this old couple, both with correctly dated Swiss Passes but bereft of the passports to go with them.
Inspector K: He says, "Well it is your responsibility to read the regulations, your ticket is not valid without a passport. Penalty Fare and full fare payable, hope you enjoy the rest of your stay in Switzerland, Ker-ching! If you want to claim redress write to customer services, the address is on the internet and its not my fault if you don't use modern technology or understand German".
Inspector R: Ah, you really need to have a passport with you in future for this ticket to be valid. Now do you have any other form of photo identification, ah yes, a driver's licence, I can see the name on ticket matches the one on that license and that the picture is you. Have a wonderful stay in Switzerland and don't forget to bring your passport with you next time.
Now which Inspector has done the best job for SBB? In the short-term, Inspector K took the old English pair to the cleaners for a CHF350, I bet he felt good. Inspector R however has probably ensured that the couple return again, with a potential spend not just of CHF 500 for their passes but also a similar sum in food, twice that in accommodation and more rosy tales of friendly staff amongst the stunning Alpine scenery. These two scenarios reflect the reality of that day, the second scenario was close to that of the guard who checked our tickets as we left Locarno, he accepted alternative documents without problem. The first scenario matched closely the attitude of the guard who checked the tickets as we pulled out of Luzern. 
That, was my point.
The aim of ensuring the ticket belonged to the person named on the ticket was satisfied in scenario R, the policy of Italian hotels (& some in the Ticino of CH) who retain passports overnight is as much an issue as the intransigence of the SBB ticket Inspector.
Regards
Helena







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Re: Baggage Security on Trains (was BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing)

Krist van Besien
 

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Don <donnewing@me.com> wrote:

For Some years now when traveling by train I have used a small combination lock with an extending wire loop (available from many travel goods shops), and lock my bag to the rack (admittedly not possible in some types of carriage, but certainly possible in Swiss double deck IC stock).
I do the same thing. Works because a would be thief has only a few
seconds to get your bag and get out. Anything that slows him down is
sufficient.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

tudor erich
 

Thank you,
 
Bernard


Baggage Security on Trains (was BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing)

Don Newing
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, Andy Micklethwaite wrote:

Switzerland (without border checks - unlike Eurostar!) has entered the modern world.

Regaining a reputation is much harder than losing it.
Andy.
For Some years now when traveling by train I have used a small combination lock with an extending wire loop (available from many travel goods shops), and lock my bag to the rack (admittedly not possible in some types of carriage, but certainly possible in Swiss double deck IC stock). If traveling with more than one bag, just lock the two bags together, making handling them together very difficult. While not proof against a thief armed with wire cutters, it will certainly persuade an opportunist thief to chose a different bag!

Don Newing


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

glenn allen
 

From: Andy Micklethwaite
Switzerland (without border checks - unlike Eurostar!) has entered
the modern world.
<http://travelblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/01/blog-thefts-can-happen-anywhere-even-on-swiss-trains.html>
Regaining a reputation is much harder than losing it.
Something from the bottom of the article :

The Swiss ticket inspectors took pity on Chris and didn't charge him for
his return train to Bern when he explained his situation. But he is now
all too aware that, however sad it is, we really do now need to be
every bit as vigilant on Swiss trains as we are on our own or any other
rail network in the world.

Hmm, how come he didn't get fined? ;-)

And, nice picture at the top, not in keeping with the article, that's an RhB train at Morterasch heading for St Moritz.

I remember reading a story about chance thieves over at Zweisimmen, or nearby, would watch tourists get on a train, see them get off to take a photo, and would nip on to steal their luggage. I don't think crime is a new thing in Switzerland.


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Andy Micklethwaite
 

Switzerland (without border checks - unlike Eurostar!) has entered the modern world.
<http://travelblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/01/blog-thefts-can-happen-anywhere-even-on-swiss-trains.html>
Regaining a reputation is much harder than losing it.
Andy.


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Guerbetaler <muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de> wrote:
Am 07.02.2013 20:17, schrieb Andrew Moglestue:
Can you board the Postauto in, say, Beromünster, and ask the driver
to sell you a ticket to Saas Fee?
The standard answer is yes. The special answer might be, that the
"Tarifverbund" in Beromüster has defined restricted possibilities.
AFAIK the "national tariff" covers all permanent settlements. I have
travelled quite regularly on tickets that included both bus and train
parts.
Buying an online or mobile ticket from Beromünster to Saas Fee is
certainly possible.

But the difference between regional zone based tariffs and the
national tariff is indeed confusing at times, which is why it is going
to disappear. There is a new national tariff on the way that will
replace both the existing national and regional tariffs.

The old style ticket machines that many stations used to have would
only sell tickets to a limited number of destinations. (you can only
put so many buttons on 0.5 m2). I once boarded in Thalbrücke, with
destination Chur, and could only buy a ticket to Zürich. I explained
that in the train to the conductor and got a "streckenwechsel" (route
change) without much ado. I suppose that this would still be possible,
as the new conditions explicitely mention that possibility.

Krist
--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Krist van Besien
 

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Bill Bolton <billbolton.email@gmail.com> wrote:
So, if they are "professional" fare evaders, it should be quite simple
to identify them and treat them appropriately given all the technology
that it is asserted a SBB conductor has access to..... instead of
penalising ordinary citizens in the ways detailed by numrous posters
here already.
And how should this be done, in your opinion? SBB conductors don't
have lie detectors on them.

I don't think many ordinary citizens are being unjustly punished here.
The stories I have heard so far seem to mostly fall in the category of
passengers being sloppy in the assumption they could get away with it
if they tell a good story. Afterwards this story is then repeated to
the press in a way that makes it appear the the passenger is
completely innocent...

Always be very sceptical of what you read in the newspaper or hear on
TV. I have in my life been witness to several events that made it in
to the media, and never have I seen a reporter getting all the facts
right. Never.
So I doubt there are many instances of "innocent people" being penalised.

Krist


--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Bill Bolton
 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 05:41:14 +0100, Krist wrote:

One of the problems SBB faces is that there are professional fare
evaders out there that are very good at impersonating a honest, but
confused person, with a sad story.
So, if they are "professional" fare evaders, it should be quite simple
to identify them and treat them appropriately given all the technology
that it is asserted a SBB conductor has access to..... instead of
penalising ordinary citizens in the ways detailed by numrous posters
here already.

Or else, that's just another hollow justification for draconian
treatement of passengers (aka customers).

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Re: Re 4/4 II 11116

csipromo
 

Available pictures at www.20min.ch only show one side of the
locomotive and the other side is apparently much more damaged
I would guess so, because the transformers are on the SBB FFS side of the locomotive.

Regards

Mike C


SZU coach damaged 1st Feb 2013

M BARBER
 

Not seen this posted any where before. SZU coach damaged by a wagon during a shunt move <http://www.bahnonline.ch/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/SZU-NDW-B-252-Kollision-Giesshuebel-56618_02.pdf>

If link does not work then found it here http://www.bahnonline.ch/wp

Mark


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Jools39
 

An interesting debate.

One thing that has not been mentioned is what to do when the ticket examiner makes a mistake or does not understand the ticket and issues a fine. I would refuse to pay this. Get the police by all means but I will not pay a fine when I have a valid ticket.

This has happened to others who paid the fine, and in my opinion the refund of the fine is not a satisfactory outcome. I feel that compensation would be in order too. This should cover any interest and any mental anguish caused. Laugh by all means, but I would not be happy to be accused of something that I was not guilty of in front of a potentially coach full of people.

Sometimes those of us who use certain tickets regularly do know more about them than the on board staff.


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 20:17, schrieb Andrew Moglestue:
Can you board the Postauto in, say, Berom�nster, and ask the driver
to sell you a ticket to Saas Fee?
The standard answer is yes. The special answer might be, that the "Tarifverbund" in Berom�ster has defined restricted possibilities.

For some time it wasn't possible to buy a ticket to Saas Fee at many railway stations in the region of Bern, because the "Libero Tarifverbund" was not ready with a software for the new ticket vending machines, that could sell tickets outside the Libero.

So, there is not an important difference between railway and bus, but there is an important difference between the three groups:
a) distinct tariff for one company only (seldom today)
b) part of the national tariff
c) regional tariff applying

BUT all this should not be the problem of the passenger, should it?
However, it IS!

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: Gotthard Co-op Train - Query

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 19:54, schrieb Don:
Bruce and All. Red face here! I downloaded a batch of Graphics late
last year and this is the first time I have had need of G312. Turns
out SBB still had the 2012 in the batch I took, all others were 2013.
I have now deleted the outdated version and have the 2013 edition and
sure enough there is 50644, as above. As if by magic! I will be
re-checking all my graphics in the database for sure and an eye test
is to be booked. Go on, have a smile on me.......
My version of G312, containing 50644, is dated 23.11.2012 and all 2013 graphics are on-line since 1st December.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing

Andrew Moglestue
 

In Switzerland it is often possible to buy a single ticket covering
the whole trip. You can buy a combined postauto - train ticket...

Can  you board the Postauto in, say, Beromünster, and ask the driver to sell you a ticket to Saas Fee?

I doubt it.

And if it is possible, how broadly is the fact known?
Us rail fans knowing of some special tricks may be one thing. For your average local or even tourist to understand that is something different.

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