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Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

Chris Wood
 

Markus writes:


> It only concerns trains with more than 10 coaches, thus only trains with
an additional "module". Standard consist Genève - St. Gallen is 10
IC2000 coaches, Brig - Romanshorn 9 IC2000 coaches.
and

I think, SBB will keep its normal processus which is to add the second
> locomotive together with the additional coaches wherever this happens.


Which does make me want to know more. The standard consist usually comprises the locomotive at one end and a double-deck driving trailer at the other. When an extra module is added, this can be coupled at either end, which can mean the locomotive ends up in the middle of the consist.


If we now add a second locomotive into this mix, are there any rules as to where it has to go in the consist?.


3810 17.10.2014

Martin Baumann
 

3810 Rorschach-Zürich HB was worked by 540 038 and 11139 this morning. This pairing also worked 3831 Zürich St Gallen yesterday


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 16.10.2014 20:20, schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
Will the trains with added locomotive run as such for the entire run,
or will locomotives be used either as pusher or additional traction
only between Zurich HB and the next station?
There is no "banker track" or "pusher stub" in Z�rich HB.

I think, SBB will keep its normal processus which is to add the second locomotive together with the additional coaches wherever this happens. I recently suffered a delay leaving Geneva because they had problems coupling the second locomotive.

And as it was already said, it is not only the problem of the grades in Z�rich, it is also the problem of avoiding delays due to engineering work requiring reduces speed. And this is the case from Geneva to
St. Gallen.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

csipromo
 

Will the trains with added locomotive run as such for the entire run, or will locomotives be used either as pusher or additional traction only between Zurich HB and the next station?

Regards


Mike C


Re: Prison train

csipromo
 

Better than reporting that you just spotted an InterCity passing your train on the way to jail

Mike C


Prison train

George Raymond
 

Travelling on the new line from Bern to Olten, my train just overtook the Securitas "jail rail" prison train (one self-propelled coach and a windowless trailer), which was eastbound on the old line just west of Roggwil-Wynach at 13:53.

George


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

Martin Baumann
 

Schweers und Wall Swiss atlas has an excellent Zürich map which clearly shows what tunnel goes where

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Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

OL.Guerbetal
 

W�gli gives some basic information, look at numbers 735 for tracks 41-44 (then still 21-24) and at 752 for tracks 31-34 (then still without track numbers).

Tracks 41-44 are at a hight of 393.8 m above sea level.
Tracks 31-34 are at a hight of 392.0 m above sea level.
Tracks 21-22 are at a hight of 395.9 m above sea level.
Tracks 3-18 are at a hight of 407.7 m above sea level.

Further points:
Deepest point of Weinberg Tunnel is at 373.0 m, 0.96 km after Z�rich HB. From there to Oerlikon junction it is 3.58 km to reach 428.2 m height.

The maximum gradients are from Altstetten to Oerlikon:
40� up, 27� down on 2.38 km to Z�rich Vorbahnhof
26� up, 27� down on 1.89 km to Z�rich HB
35� up, 37� down on 4.54 km to Z�rich Oerlikon junction
35� up, 2� down on 1.32 km to Z�rich Oerlikon

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: BLS RBDe 566 I

Martin Baumann
 

Only one set is now serviceable, 221-555-921. It is confirmed as working the booked diagram today 15.10.2014


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

Chris Wood
 

Max Wyse wrote:

> The level of the station is determined by the Sihl crossing, and the
Hirschengraben tunnel crossing.

Well if Google maps is to be believed, the Weinberg tunnel passes under the Hirschengraben tunnel more or less exactly underneath Central tram stop. Which is not very far at all from the eastern end of the HB. Subjectively, going down the escalators, it doesn't feel like platforms 31-34 are much deeper than platforms 41-4, but I agree that could be misleading and I havn't seen a properly scaled cross-section of the station.


> The gradients are determined by the distance to the surface, which means that the line has to be on the
> surface before crossing the Langstrasse.


Which is, of course, equally true for the line into platforms 41-4. The satellite image from Google maps confirm that both lines commence their descent about the same distance out from the HB. So I guess it does come down to whether I'm right about both sets of platforms being at the same level, in which case there would a very steep gradient between the platforms and Central, or wrong, in which case the ramp up to the surface would be steeper for 31-4 than for 41-4.


> As it has been said, a train consisting of more than 10 IC2000 bi-levels is borderline for a single Re460 to
> reasonably handle up that grade.


Of course the other possibility is that both ramps have the same steep gradient. After all, it isn't very often that an Re460 is called upon to haul IC2000 bi-levels out of platforms 41-4. :-)


2015 timetable now in Journey Planner

Martin Baumann
 

The 14.12.2014 timetable is now available at the SBB: Der SBB Fahrplan. http://www.sbb.ch/fahrplan.html

http://www.sbb.ch/fahrplan.html

SBB: Der SBB Fahrplan. http://www.sbb.ch/fahrplan.html Online-Fahrplan und Online-Billettkauf für die Schweiz, Deutschland, Österreich, Frankreich. Bahnbetriebsinfos bei Störungen. Von der SBB für Sie.



View on www.sbb.ch http://www.sbb.ch/fahrplan.html
Preview by Yahoo



journey planner. As is usual at this time of year there may be periods of unavailability and last minute corrections may change information currently in the planner


Re: RBe 540 update

Martin Baumann
 

An RBe 540 set is replacing the Zürich-Stuttgart hauled trains today between Zürich and Schaffhausen. (Strike in Germany)


15.10.2014


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

Max Wyss
 


Mike C wrote :

> It was reported that the new SBB "Durchmesser" line underneath Zurich
is too step for current locomotives.
> The line had to be built underneath existing underground lines beneath
Zurich HB and this has created a
> situation where a typical train consist with a single locomotive may
have issues with the steep inclines
> between the station and the surface.

I don't think that is quite correct. The depth of the underground
platforms at HB is largely dictated by the need for them to pass under the
Sihl river channel, and both the new platforms 31-34 and the existing 41-44
are at about the same level.

However it is true that the Weinberg tunnel (from HB31/4 to Oerlikon)
passes under the Hirschengraben tunnel (HB41/4 to Stadelhofen) close to the
point where the latter tunnel is itself passing under the Limmat. So I
think the gradient they are talking about is between that point and the
station, rather than being between the station and the surface.
The level of the station is determined by the Sihl crossing, and the
Hirschengraben tunnel crossing. The gradients are determined by the
distance to the surface, which means that the line has to be on the surface
before crossing the Langstrasse, as well as connecting to the line to
Wiedikon. This gradient is the really steep one.

As it has been said, a train consisting of more than 10 IC2000 bi-levels is
borderline for a single Re460 to reasonably handle up that grade.


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

Andrew Moglestue
 

The new Weinberg tunnel is at a considerably greater depth than the former Letten tunnel, so I don't think there is a point of conflict.

The Letten tunnel has been filled in by the way. This was necessary, apparently, because nobody could think of any possible use for it, The lining was becoming instable and would have required expensive repairs. Filling the tunnel with rubble was thus found to be the best option.

The Milchbuck road tunnel may have been more challenging as it is deeper down. I think the Weinbergtunnel actually passes below it, but there is no immediate conflict as there is quite some space between the two.

The entire hill formation around Milchbuck as well as in fact most of the rest of the hills around Zurich are former glacier side or end-moraines, meaning they are formed of compacted loose material left behind by glaciers. The spaces bewteen the material is in some cases waterlogged and the water table is quite high in some places and low in others. This calls for special caution when tunneling. I live close to Bucheggplatz and during the construction of the tunnel they were continuing monitoring whether any buildings were moving. I had to grant building inspectors access to my appartment to look for cracks (fortunately they didn't find any). They were also regulating the water table with huge pumps.

When the Milchbuck tunnel was built, it was the intention that it would become part of a future road "Y" with one artery follwing Sihlquai and one passing below the Hauptbahnhof in a tunnel parallel to the Sihl. The short cavern that was built for this was in more recent years used as the informatuion centre for the Durchmesserlinie. With political opinion in Zürich having shifted it is unlikely this road will ever be completed as first intended although possible uses for the orphaned bits of tunnel keep coming up every few years.

Andrew

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562 Geneve-La Plaine

Martin Baumann
 

Eisenbahn Amateur reports that the following trains are now booked for a 562 NPZ:


(Monday-Friday only)
0545 Geneva-La Plaine (11116)
0624 La Plaine-Geneva (11119)
0646 Geneva-La Plaine (11122)
0722 La Plaine-Geneva (11127)
1646 Geneva-La Plaine (11168)
1722 La Plaine-Geneva (11173)
1755 Geneva-La Plaine (11175)
1817 La Plaine-Geneva (11176)
1846 Geneva-La Plane (11178)
1922 La Plaine-Geneva (11183)


ETCS Brunnen-Erstfeld

Martin Baumann
 

ETCS will be commissioned between Brunnen and Erstfeld in August 2015. From then only trains fitted with ETCS will be permitted on that section. I understand SBB-P intend to for some Re 4/4 II with ETCS for Gotthard trains though none have been done yet.


All 460 and ICN (RABDe 500) already have ETCS as do the following SBB-C locos:
11265~11298
11605~11639
11661~11689
all 474
484 001 to 484 010


BLS 170 to 190 as well as all 465 and 485 have ETCS


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

Chris Wood
 

Mike C wrote :

> It was reported that the new SBB "Durchmesser" line underneath Zurich is too step for current locomotives.
> The line had to be built underneath existing underground lines beneath Zurich HB and this has created a
> situation where a typical train consist with a single locomotive may have issues with the steep inclines
> between the station and the surface.


I don't think that is quite correct. The depth of the underground platforms at HB is largely dictated by the need for them to pass under the Sihl river channel, and both the new platforms 31-34 and the existing 41-44 are at about the same level.


However it is true that the Weinberg tunnel (from HB31/4 to Oerlikon) passes under the Hirschengraben tunnel (HB41/4 to Stadelhofen) close to the point where the latter tunnel is itself passing under the Limmat. So I think the gradient they are talking about is between that point and the station, rather than being between the station and the surface.


Incidentally, further north the Weinberg tunnel also has to pass under the (disused) Letten rail tunnel, and the Milchbuck road tunnel. Not sure if these have any effect on the gradient north into Oerlikon or not.


Re: More locos in use from December 2015

gordonwis
 

Another solution:

reinstate Ae6/6 (to release Re4/4II and Re6/6) or use Re6/6 on passenger as in the old days...


Re: New Zurich Underground line too steep for locomotives

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 13.10.2014 18:03, schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
It was reported that the new SBB "Durchmesser" line underneath Zurich
is too step for current locomotives. The line had to be built
underneath existing underground lines beneath Zurich HB and this has
created a situation where a typical train consist with a single
locomotive may have issues with the steep inclines between the
station and the surface. As a result, some consists are now being
operated with two locomotives.
That's the first part of the information. However, "now" is not Oct. 2014 but Dec. 2015, only then the ICs will use the new line.

It only concerns trains with more than 10 coaches, thus only trains with an additional "module". Standard consist Genève - St. Gallen is 10 IC2000 coaches, Brig - Romanshorn 9 IC2000 coaches.

Already now you will find some trains with two locomotives, e.g.
<http://www.reisezuege.ch/reisezuege/index.php?action=5&znummer=735>

SBB declared that they need 10 additional locomotives. They want to hire some locomotives from SBBC to overcome the shortage until the new Bombardier doubledeckers will be delivered.

Another reason for more second locomotives are several engineering works that require reduced speed but good acceleration for the rest (to reduce delays).

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: More locos in use from December 2015

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 13.10.2014 20:40, schrieb Helena :
Oh Martin, how I wish, but they'll find a way to thwart those
dreams. 1) reducing the load by taking out a coach
can't imagine this solution

2) using ETR 610 on the Brig-Geneve line and keeping the ETR 470
going a bit longer... After all they were meant to go this December
and have been kept on.
not really a "solution"

3) come on they'd use Flirts on IC diagrams to avoid locomotives.
rather this than the above. Provided they had enough FLIRTs...

another solution:

4) Bombardier has to provide Traxxes able for 160 km/h and fitted with ETCS to replace some Re 460 on not-push-pull trains. (remember what happened when Bombardier was late in delivering some Lötschbergers)

Markus, Gürbetal

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