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Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 11.04.2015 um 19:30 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
I am still confused as to what this argument is all about and I don't
know if Markus and I are even talking about the same thing. All of my
comments have been in reference to the line coming from
Zuerich-Altstatten via Affoltern am Albis that joins the Luzern-Zug
line just north of Cham and then joins the Thalwil-Gotthard line at
the south end of Zug Station.
The problem is about the fact, that the junction is NOT at the South end of Zug Station.

Please have a lookt at map.geo.admin.ch(ZugStation).pdf which is in the folder

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SwissRail/files/SBB/>

Direct access to the PDF ... if Yahoo will allow it ...
<https://xa.yimg.com/df/SwissRail/map.geo.admin.ch%28ZugStation%29.pdf?token=U7hyshCcYW_9tplQGa1rnlCXcCWH6nINfoKm6GPRN2k-Rc4gD2m1njjsksb_9DrYYiCKiwkNOzQmR169MvWkoX185EgWQFkN6_Pp8qhorjzh0RBxoTzjcWWk4mZ2kwFIV8xaQEZrmA&type=download>

This PDF is from the official map site of the Swiss confederation. Only blue text and arrows are added. North is at the top and South at the bottom.

Markus, G�rbetal


New file uploaded to SwissRail

SwissRail@...
 

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the SwissRail
group.


File : /SBB/map.geo.admin.ch(ZugStation).pdf
Uploaded by : guerbetal <guerbetaler@sunrise.ch>
Description : Situation of Zug station and junction of the lines from Cham and Affoltern am Albis with the Thalwil - Gotthard line


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SwissRail/files/SBB/map.geo.admin.ch%28ZugStation%29.pdf


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


guerbetal <guerbetaler@sunrise.ch>


Re: Zug Station (was Interesting diversions on 11+12 April)

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 11.04.2015 um 19:03 schrieb martin98baumann@outlook.com [SwissRail]:
Track 1 is now a bay platform leading to Baar only. Was it at one
time a through platform?
Unfortunately Google isn't able to distinguish Zug and Zug, or in English Zug and train. Thus I can't find older pictures of the Zug station. But if I'm not mistaken, the situation was like this:

There was only one platform on the Gotthard side of the station. A second track only had a small platform or rather a train entry help step. So passengers had to cross the track at the platform to get to the small platform of the other track. And there was no third track.

map of 1989
<http://map.geo.admin.ch/?X=225223.17&Y=681822.76&zoom=9&lang=de&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-farbe&catalogNodes=457,458&layers_timestamp=19891231&time=1989&layers=ch.swisstopo.zeitreihen>

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: ETR470

csipromo
 

Are the withdrawn trainsets being scrapped or are they being transferred to Trenitalia as reserve for their fleet?

Regards


Mike C


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

csipromo
 

I am still confused as to what this argument is all about and I don't know if Markus and I are even talking about the same thing. All of my comments have been in reference to the line coming from Zuerich-Altstatten via Affoltern am Albis that joins the Luzern-Zug line just north of Cham and then joins the Thalwil-Gotthard line at the south end of Zug Station.

I only lived in Switzerland for a year as a child, but during that time, we were frequent visitors to the Aegeri and Zug areas. Before making my first post, I consulted google maps to trace the line, but, as I have stated, I followed the line only as far as the junction north of Cham and forgot that the loop at Zug had been eliminated, thereby preventing Gotthard bound trains from being able to use the Affoltern route without having to reverse direction at Zug.


I am not trying to argue with Markus, only to understand what he is talking about and to get a better understanding of the current network.


Hopefully, we can one day all get together over a Zuger Kirschtorte and laugh about how we seem to have misunderstood each other.


Regards


Mike C


Zug Station (was Interesting diversions on 11+12 April)

Martin Baumann
 

Track 1 is now a bay platform leading to Baar only. Was it at one time a through platform?


ETR470

Martin Baumann
 

The last SBB scheduled ETR470 working was today: 1225 Milano-Zürich EC 30016 ETR470-009. However the set has now gone on loan to FS and will continue to run between Zürich and Milan for FS until August. This is because the FS sets, which will remain on the route until December 2016, need to have ETCS refitted to work over the Gotthard route and they will be out of service one at a time forthis to be done


Re: Question about restored historic locomotives.

John Lovda
 

Thanks Mike: I saw 10997 sitting on an industrial siding behind a factory next to the mainline Gotthard tracks in Brunnen, I believe. It looked beautiful so I knew it was special.


John


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

Max Wyss
 

The line from Affoltern joins the line from Luzern to Zug just north
of Cham and then joins with the Thalwil-Gotthard line (in a
northbound direction) just south of Zug station. The junction
technically is part of Zug Bahnhof with tracks leading towards Cham
and others towards Walchwil and Arth-Goldau.
Max! HELP! Would you be so kind and tell our dear Mr. Mike C. where
"South of Zug station" is? He doesn't believe me...
Max is an "Aboriginal Säuliämter" so he really knows the area.
Markus, Gürbetal, desperate

Dear csipromo: First and foremost, experience has shown that it is rarely a
good idea to annoy the moderator(s) of a forum <g>.

Anyway, I don't really care about North, East, South and West, when it
comes to the Bahnhof Zug. Zug can be reached from 4 directions:

• Baar (from Zürich-Thalwil-Sihlbrugg),
• Cham (from Luzern-Rotkreuz)
• Walchwil (from Ticino-Gotthard-Arth-Goldau)
• Steinhausen (from Zürich-Affoltern a/A… that's the Säuliamt-line).

Zug station is a wedge station, where the point of the wedge is on the Baar
side of the station. Tracks 1 to 3 lead to Walchwil, and tracks 4 to 7 lead
to Cham. How the connection to Steinhausen is made, we'll see below.

We have to make a difference between the situation before the
reconstruction of the Bahnhof Zug, around 1990 and after.

A) Before reconstruction:

The line from Steinhausen turned parallel to the line from Cham, about
halfway between Cham and Zug (that place had a stop in the really olden
days, and is called Kollermühle (a place infamous for decades because of
the nightclub nearby). There was no connection; what looked like a double
track was not; it was two parallel single track lines. After about a
kilometer, some 800 m or so before the line from Cham entered the station
area, the line from Steinhausen deviated in a 90 degree curve, and formed a
loop passing by the Zug station, and joining the line from Baar near the
locomotive shed.

The following connections were possible without changing of direction:

Baar - Walchwil
Baar - Cham
Steinhausen - Walchwil
Steinhausen - Cham

Cham - Walchwil was not necessary, because the Südbahn line makes the
connection between Rotkreuz and Arth-Goldau. However, from the really olden
days, there was a connector between Cham and Steinhausen, but that one was
rarely used anyway, and cut when the N4a highway (nowadays A4a) was built.
This connector was officially (nick)named "Sumpfgleis" (swamp track).

Steinhausen - Walchwil became more or less obsolete with the Limmatal
Classification yard and the Heitersberg line, routing freight through
Killwangen-Spreitenbach - Othmarsingen - Rotkreuz - Arth-Goldau, which had
the advantage to be double tracked all the way.


B) After reconstruction:

The reconstruction of the Bahnhof Zug occurred together with several line
upgrades in context with the S-Bahn Zürich (and later with the Stadtbahn
Zug). The line from Zug to Cham was double-tracked, where one track was
using the line from Steinhausen. In order to build a proper double track,
and to simplify the layout, and speed up the trains from Steinhausen, a
proper junction was built at the Kollermühle, and with that, the loop
became obsolete (and was therefore dismantled).

This now led to the following possible connections:

Baar - Walchwil
Baar - Cham
Baar - Steinhausen


Alle Klarheit beseitigt?

Max (not an aboriginal Säuliämtler (to get that status, you have to be
Citizen of one of the villages in the Säuliamt, and your family had to live
there for a few generations). It was my father moving to my long-time home
town, but he never applied for the local citizenship (by the time it would
have made a difference, the eligibility for scholarships for the gymnasiums
and universities got changed from citizenship to residency). Nevertheless,
I spent the biggest part of my life in the Säuliamt.

Max.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Summer steam

Mark Pichowicz
 

Once again I have (finally) put together a list of all the steam/heritage running events that I know of for Switzerland this year. Please feel free to offer any corrections/amendments/additions. I know as always that there are many more events going on that aren't widely advertised that are missing from my list as this is only what I can find form a couple of hours of internet searching.

Anyway the list is here:
http://www.swissheritagerailways.com/calender.html

Hopefully this will be of use to someone on here.

Thanks,
Mark


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 10.04.2015 um 19:40 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
The line from Affoltern joins the line from Luzern to Zug just north
of Cham and then joins with the Thalwil-Gotthard line (in a
northbound direction) just south of Zug station. The junction
technically is part of Zug Bahnhof with tracks leading towards Cham
and others towards Walchwil and Arth-Goldau.
Max! HELP! Would you be so kind and tell our dear Mr. Mike C. where "South of Zug station" is? He doesn't believe me...

Max is an "Aboriginal S�uli�mter" so he really knows the area.

Markus, G�rbetal, desperate


Re: Question about restored historic locomotives.

csipromo
 

[HTML message repaired by the moderator]


Some of the locomotives were sold by the railway to associations and groups. Others are owned by SBB Historic but have been loaned/leased/rented to associations in exchange for the upkeep of the equipment. I don't know the exact terms, but these deals keep the locomotives in operating condition and likely ensure that the equipment is available to SBB Historic on preferential terms for excursion and ceremonial use. Some of the associations have acquired more than one locomotive and parts from one or two have been used to restore the main unit to operative condition and to provide a parts supply for future repairs.


For example, the DSF (Fricktal/Koblenz) acquired the former SOB BDe 4/4 80 from the Verein Mirage in 2010 and intended to use it as a parts source for their former WM BDe 4/4. It was then decided that it would be easier to repair the SOB BDe 4/4 than to repair the WM one, so it was put back into operating condition. Since then, they have been operating both of these units on excursions and charters.


Ae 4/7 10997 is owned by Classic Rail and is used by the Club San Gottardo for charters and excursions, primarily on the Gotthard route.


Ae 6/6 11421 Graubünden is owned by SBB Historic but was leased to a Verein that originally wanted to acquire 11403.


This site has some photos and lists many of the Vereins:
http://www.bahnbilderschweiz.ch/bilder-historisch/


Regards Mike C


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

csipromo
 

The line from Affoltern joins the line from Luzern to Zug just north of Cham and then joins with the Thalwil-Gotthard line (in a northbound direction) just south of Zug station. The junction technically is part of Zug Bahnhof with tracks leading towards Cham and others towards Walchwil and Arth-Goldau.

This junction is at the southwest end of the station and not north as you state.


Regards


Mike C


Re: Question about restored historic locomotives.

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 09.04.2015 um 17:58 schrieb jlovda@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
I have photographed several historic locomotives that travel around
on weekends. These do not appeared to be owned by SBB Historic. Some
I remember are the AE6/6 Graubunden, BLS Ae6/8 208 and Ae4/7 10997.
Who actually owns these? Do the owners (clubs?) have to pay for power
and track usage? Where do they get parts? Is there a scrap yard they
rummage through? How much help do they get from the railroad; SBB,
BLS, etc?
Over here in Europe, some things are a bit different. Railway lines are public infrastructure and against payment of an officially published fee any company, having the necessary staff and safety processes, is allowed to use this infrastructure. You may do so for running freight trains or historic passenger trains. And some clubs actually do it.

Concerning the question where they have the spare parts from, there are at least as many answers as clubs...

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 09.04.2015 um 18:48 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
the last time I checked, the line from Cham comes into to Zug Bahnhof
from the Southwest and not from the north.
We never spoke about this. Your statement was:

Am 07.04.2015 um 06:03 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
but forgot that that line joins with the Thalwil-Arth Goldau line
just south of the Zug station
And this is North of the Zug station, not South of the Zug station.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

Max Wyss
 

And to clarify, the former Zug loop that Martin refers to in his earlier
posts is this one,
picked out in red. It is still pretty easy to identify from the air, and
doesn't look as if it
has been built on or over. Why was it closed?.
The Zug loop from Steinhausen got closed because a direct access from the
Kollermühle reduces the travel time from Steinhausen to Zug by a good 3
minutes. If you look at the map, it was a very tight curve, limied to
something like 50 or so km/h (may have been a little bit more, but it is
quite a long timee ago since a train I rode on went through that curve).
And from there to the actual platforms, speed was limited to 40 km/h,
because all within yard area.

Most of that line is now a footpath.

Also, the two parallel tracks were needed for the double track between Zug
and Cham; there is not much space available in places so that a third track
could have been laid, and the underground is really not the best there; no
wonder the area is also called "the swamp".

These 3 minutes earlier arrival or later departure are important for the
connections in Zug. Otherwise, there would be conflicts between the S-Bahn
from Steinhausen and the Zug "S-Bahn" from (Luzern -) Cham, and then the
express from Luzern.

When the loop was still in operation, and the Heitersberg line not open
yet, there were a few freight trains Gotthard - Zürich which actually got
routed through the piggy county line (the nickname of the Affoltern county
is "Säuliamt", piggy county). One was kind of famous, because it was used
to transfer locomotives repaired in Bellinzona to Zürich, and I do remember
a double-header Ce 6/8" + Be 4/6. I remember attempting to take a picture
of that train, but the famous fog from the Reusstal made it pretty
difficult. I don't know whether that slide got lost in the various moves
since then…

Max.


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

csipromo
 

And this is just North of the Zug station. Do you agree?
:-)



Markus,

the last time I checked, the line from Cham comes into to Zug Bahnhof from the Southwest and not from the north.






Regards


Mike C


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

Chris Wood
 

And to clarify, the former Zug loop that Martin refers to in his earlier posts is this one, picked out in red. It is still pretty easy to identify from the air, and doesn't look as if it has been built on or over. Why was it closed?.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zLZMxymqESaw.kWW6dKfav5ls


Question about restored historic locomotives.

John Lovda
 

I have photographed several historic locomotives that travel around on weekends. These do not appeared to be owned by SBB Historic. Some I remember are the AE6/6 Graubunden, BLS Ae6/8 208 and Ae4/7 10997. Who actually owns these? Do the owners (clubs?) have to pay for power and track usage? Where do they get parts? Is there a scrap yard they rummage through? How much help do they get from the railroad; SBB, BLS, etc?


Thanks


Re: Interesting dversions on 11+12 April

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 08.04.2015 um 02:52 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com:
I did look at a map ...
Am 07.04.2015 um 06:03 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
but forgot that that line joins with the Thalwil-Arth Goldau line
just south of the Zug station
The line from Cham and Affoltern joins the Thalwil-Arth-Goldau line here:
<http://map.geo.admin.ch/?X=225554.00&Y=681673.00&zoom=7&lang=de&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-farbe&crosshair=marker>

And this is just North of the Zug station. Do you agree?
:-)

Markus, G�rbetal

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