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Re: Stadler to leave Altenrhein

reiss@...
 

There could be another (and very imported) reason:

Altenrhein site is not suited for manufacturing units.

Railcar bodies have to be moved sidewards for the next construction step (e.g. by crane)

After mechanical completion of a single railcar (body on bogies) there is a single track to leave the building. Internal transport to other facilities (e.g. for painting) is done by a “Scheuerle” (a huge low bed road vehicle with all axles steering).

Completions of units (six cars to a 150 m Kiss) take place in some kind of a temporary assembly hangar.

A new built site could remove all this issues.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Stadler to leave Altenrhein

Chris Wood
 

Sadly, this sentence, which appears to describe the part of the business that will remain at Altenrhein, has defeated my German:

Geplant ist, die Kastendetailfertigung dort zu belassen.
Can anybody explain what Kastendetailfertigung is?.


Re: Stadler to leave Altenrhein

John Lovda
 

In other words either Stadler was strong-arming a lease reduction or the building owner thought he could squeeze more rent out of Stadler and they walked.


Re: Stadler to leave Altenrhein

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 10.07.2017 um 18:32 schrieb Andrew Moglestue:
I heard something similar from a Stadler employee last week. (he was
not from the Altenrhein site) It seems one of the reasons they want
to move is that the present site isn't rail connected. This sounded
logical to me until i went onto Google Earth and discovered there is
actually such a connection. So maybe either I or he had misunderstood
something.
Altenrhein work is connected to Staad station.

The reason mentioned in local newspapers was that the buildings do not belong to StadlerRail and that the owner had different ideas about financing extensions.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Two "oldies" questions

Chris Wood
 

Andrew writes:

> Are all the arches of the 1933 roof genuinely equal width?
> I spent some time staring at them last week and really couldn't make up my mind.

Well I thought they were judging by nothing more scientific than looking at them on Google Maps. But the cross-section diagram that Markus posted shows that they are not. Ignoring the outer two pairs of today's tracks, that have been subject to extension and rebuild since 1933, the arch widths going south to north have the following widths:


17.80m (orginally tracks 2&3; today's tracks 5&6)
17.80m (4&5; 7&8)
17.62m (6&7; 9&10)
17.28m (8,9&10; 11&12)
17.45m (11&12; 13&14)
17.80m (13&14; 15&16)


Rather bizarrely, the arch that we know had three tracks in it is actually the narrowest, at 17.28m.


One possibility is that in 1933 the arches were designed around the pre-existing track locations, and these were in turn dictated by the 1871 train shed (now the Haupthalle) into which the more central tracks used to extend. That would explain why the arches in the middle have the variable widths, whilst those towards have a standardised 17.80m. But that is just conjecture.


Re: Two "oldies" questions

Andrew Moglestue
 

Bonus question here.


Are all the arches of the 1933 roof genuinely equal width?


I spent some time staring at them last week and really couldn't make up my mind.


Re: Two "oldies" questions

gordonwis
 

As the geographical convention is that the right bank is as a human sees it with the source of the river behind them, and the 'destination' of the downstream flow ahead of them, it is reasonably easy to determine all the Swiss lakes except for parts of the Untersee and odd bits of the Vierwäldstadtersee, such as the Horw 'bay', however much of the Vierwaldstattersee is divided up into smaller parts which do actually have their own names, such as the Küssnachtersee (right bank is the railway side as a stream runs into the lake at Küssnacht.

Bodensee is clear, as the Rhine enters from the East and drains to the West so the right bank is the German side. Likewise Lac Leman is easy as the Rhone - as is pretty well known - enters the east end of the lake and drains to the west through Genève.

Alpnachersee is fed by the Sarner Aa from the south, and drains to the north, so the Zentralbahn clearly runs on the left bank of the lake.


Incidentally rive droite and rive gauche are commonly used for Lac Léman.

There is a nice river drainage basin map for the Aare here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Drainage_basin_maps_of_Switzerland#/media/File:Aare_basin_simple.png



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 9/7/17, Guerbetaler wrote:


Am 09.07.2017 um 16:56 schrieb
chris_j_wood@... [SwissRail]:

> The Zürichsee is the only lake I know of that uses
this convention

. But what do you do with the smaller ponds like
Alpnachersee?


BLS 168

Martin Baumann
 

168 was stopped on July 5th and is expected to be withdrawn


Re: Two "oldies" questions

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 09.07.2017 um 16:56 schrieb chris_j_wood@... [SwissRail]:
The Zürichsee is the only lake I know of that uses this convention
The Thunersee is another example and the Steffisburg - Thun - Interlaken tramway (STI) even carried this name "Rechtsufrige Thunerseebahn" on the vehicles, which you can see, if you scroll down:
<http://www.eingestellte-bahnen.ch/100201/100222.html>

This was to distinguish itself from the TSB "Thunerseebahn", now part of the BLS and running on the left bank.

Obviously, left and right is easy to determine for lakes like Zürichsee, Walensee, Thunersee or Brienzersee. For the Lake of Lucerne it's somewhat tricky, as it is only clear that downstream is in Lucerne direction. But what do you do with the smaller ponds like Alpnachersee? I have never heard left bank or right bank for the Lake of Lucerne or for the Lake of Constance. There it's rahter the German or the Swiss bank. But on the Untersee it becomes difficult again.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Two "oldies" questions

Chris Wood
 

Mike C asks:

How do you determine which is the left and which is the right coast. If you are standing in Zuerich,
then Meilen is on the left and Thalwil is on the right. If you are standing in Rapperswil, then Meilen is
on the right and Thalwil is on the left.
As Markus points out, by convention the left and right bank of a river is defined from the point of view of somebody facing downstream.

The Zürichsee is the only lake I know of that uses this convention, and it certainly confused me when I first visited Zürich. There is a huge temptation to think of it as viewed from the city, but this leads to the wrong answer.


Re: 11646

Martin Baumann
 

Confirmed that 11646 is currently receiving a Cargo repaint and that the loco will have the old round headlights replaced with the current model.


Re: Two "oldies" questions

csipromo
 

I knew that the Mirages did not stop at Richterswil. I did not remember whether it was because they did not stop there or whether it was because they did not go all the way. I remember after one missed bus we travelled to Pfaeffikon on the next few trips and caught the SOB up to Wollerau from there. Waedenswil to Samstagern and down was too complex. The Horgen Oberdorf terminus explains that perfectly.


Regards


Mike C


Re: Mirage on South Shore (was Re: Two "oldies" questions)

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.07.2017 um 16:25 schrieb csipromo@... [SwissRail]:
What was the impact of the operational areas of the Mirage and RBe
4/4 with the delivery of the RABDe 8/16 and later by the Re 450 and
finally RABe 511/514.
There were only 4 RABDe 8/16 and they took over one diagram on the Zürich - Meilen - Rapperswil line after May 1976. The 1971 accidents had reduced the number of Mirages from 20 to 18. The Mirages had some workings on other lines but they were designed and SBB purchased them to work the Zürich - Meilen - Rapperswil line. Other workings followed availability but did nowhere fully replace other rolling stock.

Start of S-Bahn with the new tunnels Zürich - Stadelhofen - Stettbach and delivery of Re 450/DPZ changed everything. The Mirages went off in 1992 to the S14 Zürich - Hinwil and eventually took over other services, as the DPZ grew to a 115 trains fleet.In December 2008 the use of the Mirages ended and they were scrapped in 2010.

RBe 4/4 had seen all sorts of services on the Zürich - Chur line, fast trains in the beginning, and after being replaced there by Re 4/4" they did other trains.

For the start of the S-Bahn Zürich, only few DPZ were available. Thus almost all RBe 4/4 were concentrated in Zürich (55 diagrams), forming consists
33 RBe - B - A - BDt
4 RBe - B - A - Dt
14 RBe - B - B - A - B - Dt
2 RBe - A - 3 B - A - B - RBe "Dispozug"
By and by more DPZ came in and displaced the RBe trainsets and with this more and more regional trains became push-pull operated.

Every new DPZ freed an RBe that on his turn freed an Ae 4/7, which went to scrap. Or the RBe freed an Re 4/4" which freed an old locomotive in freight service. Or anything like this.

The RABe 511 helped to eliminate the Mirages but also helped to extend the number of lines and the length of trains. They also replaced some locomotives in peak hour trains.

The RABe 514, together with GTW and FLIRT helped eliminate the RBe 4/4 and the last locomotives in regional trains and even RE (RegioExpress)

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Two "oldies" questions

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.07.2017 um 16:01 schrieb csipromo@... [SwissRail]:
How do you determine which is the left and which is the right coast.
The definition is in flowing direction of the water. For everybody it is
clear what "rechtsrheinisch" (on the right bank of the Rhine river) and
"linksrheinisch" (on the left bank of the Rhine river) is.
Baden-Württemberg is on the right side, Elsass/Alsace is on the left
side. Likewise you find "rive gauche" and "rive droite" in Paris (of the
Seine river) and this follows the same logic.

When we were in Switzerland in 1972, the family had rented a house in
Wollerau, which is on the south side of the lake above Richterswil.
Most of the trains along the lake shore line (Zuerich-Enge-Thalwil-Horgen-Waedenswil-Pfaeffikon SZ) were locomotive (Re 4/4II/Ae 4/7) pulled local trains using either EWI/EWII/Lightsteel or Heavy Steel coaches (of the type modelled by Roco as 44200A). There were also trains using the Mirage trainsets which did not stop at every stop and were used on trains that would stop at Thalwil, Horgen, Waedenswil and Pfaeffikon and did not stop at smaller stations like , Kilchberg, Oberrieden, Richterswil, etc.
I had a look at the 1972 Summer timetable and to the description of
Mirage use in Reto Danuser/Hans Streiff. I can't find a train that would
fit your description. There were the accelerated trains (Eilzug) on this
line, but they went to Sargans and Chur and I'm sure that no Mirage came
up there.

Danuser/Streiff say that some trains to Horgen Oberdorf were wrrked by
Mirages. That would explain why you had to change in Thalwil.

I do remember seeing Mirage trains around Zuerich-Oerlikon, but I don't recall if that was 1972 or 1985.
Dnuser/streiff say that some trains to Bülach and some Zürich - Uster - Rapperswil trains were worked by Mirages right from the beginning. So this might have been in 1972 AND 1985.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: SBB and SOB to co-operate on new concessions

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.07.2017 um 02:27 schrieb jlovda@... [SwissRail]:
As long as an eight day Swiss Pass for foreigners works, will it
matter to me who is running the train?
Perhaps it matters if you have to change twice to get to Göschenen (SBB) or if you have a through train (SOB). And perhaps it matters if you find a 2+1 seating accomodation (SOB) in first class instead of 2+2 (SBB). Just two examples.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: SBB and SOB to co-operate on new concessions

Martin Baumann
 

For the normal passenger it won't matter who or what turns up as long it is on time and has advertised facilities such as access for the less mobile.


From the enthusiast point of view it will mean fewer loco hauled trains and more Stadler units and displacement of existing SBB equipment will speed up the withdrawal of Re 4/4 II and the Bpm 21-73 coaches (opening windows)


11141

Martin Baumann
 

Passenger 11141 has been used by Cargo for the last few days, based in the west of the country. Today the loco was paired with 11366 working 60034 RBL-Geneve la Praille


Re: Mirage on South Shore (was Re: Two "oldies" questions)

csipromo
 

What was the impact of the operational areas of the Mirage and RBe 4/4 with the delivery of the RABDe 8/16 and later by the Re 450 and finally RABe 511/514. I remember in 1985 the Ae 4/7 had been replaced on the South side of the Zuerichsee by Re 4/4II and RBe 4/4 with pilot coaches. AFAIR these were mainly BDt EWII and BDt Haessliches Entlein with the Re 4/4II and Dt EWII with the RBe 4/4.

I think that that trip was the first time that I had seen Mirage trainsets in MU operation. I took a Mirage train from Zuerich to Waedenswil, changed to the SOB to Samstagern and then down to Wollerau. The return trip to Zuerich from Pfaeffikon SZ was a RBe 4/4 Pendel.


Regards


Mike C


Re: Two "oldies" questions

csipromo
 

"The Mirages were introduced for the Goldküste = gold coast = rechtes Zürichseeufer
= North shore. After delivery of the Mirages the trains only went Zürich - Meilen -
Rapperswil, no further.
The South shore = linkes Zürichseeufer = v/o Pfnüselküste is Zürich - Thalwil -
Pfäffikon SZ (- Ziegelbrücke) and it saw only few Mirage workings."
How do you determine which is the left and which is the right coast. If you are standing in Zuerich, then Meilen is on the left and Thalwil is on the right. If you are standing in Rapperswil, then Meilen is on the right and Thalwil is on the left.

When we were in Switzerland in 1972, the family had rented a house in Wollerau, which is on the south side of the lake above Richterswil. Most of the trains along the lake shore line (Zuerich-Enge-Thalwil-Horgen-Waedenswil-Pfaeffikon SZ) were locomotive (Re 4/4II/Ae 4/7) pulled local trains using either EWI/EWII/Lightsteel or Heavy Steel coaches (of the type modelled by Roco as 44200A). There were also trains using the Mirage trainsets which did not stop at every stop and were used on trains that would stop at Thalwil, Horgen, Waedenswil and Pfaeffikon and did not stop at smaller stations like , Kilchberg, Oberrieden, Richterswil, etc.

We used to love the Mirage because they were red and would travel on those trains, often as far as Thalwil, where we would change for the local train that would stop at Richterswil, where we would switch to the bus up the hill to Wollerau.

We were not frequent travellers on the Zuerich-Staefa-Meilen-Rapperswil route. I do remember seeing Mirage trains around Zuerich-Oerlikon, but I don't recall if that was 1972 or 1985.

Regards Mike C


Re: SBB and SOB to co-operate on new concessions

John Lovda
 

As long as an eight day Swiss Pass for foreigners works, will it matter to me who is running the train?

John

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