Date   

Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Theo van Riet
 

"I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter." - Blaise Pascal among his Provincial Letters (1656-57)

Op 28 aug. 2017, om 22:57 heeft Guerbetaler muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de [SwissRail] <SwissRail@yahoogroups.com> het volgende geschreven:

Am 28.08.2017 um 06:09 schrieb Bill Bolton:
It seems to me that one coach of the four car set was totally
destroyed
The first coach was destroyed to the black line I put onto this photo of
an older unit:
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SwissRail/photos/albums/1657893705 <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SwissRail/photos/albums/1657893705>>

This part contains electric gear and the cab. Passenger compartment is
to rhe right of the black line and that part remained intact. See photos
4 and 5 of this new page:

<http://www.nachrichten.at/oberoesterreich/Zugunglueck-in-Linz-mit-fuenf-Verletzten;art4,2658631,C::cme204100,1803255 <http://www.nachrichten.at/oberoesterreich/Zugunglueck-in-Linz-mit-fuenf-Verletzten;art4,2658631,C::cme204100,1803255>>

It’s a pity that the first photo’s made it to the international press and they give a totally wrong impression off the result of the collision.


Theo




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Wow! An RhB Photo Coach

gordonwis
 

On Thu, 24/8/17, glenn allen glenn_ wrote: but they are popular and you need to get in early in order to bag a seat. Second class only. t

popular perhaps, but, having travelled in one a couple of days ago, not all that brilliant. hard transverse seats - not the same as being in an EW and being able to either pull down the window by your seat bay, or nip to the end vestibule and open those windows.


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 28.08.2017 um 06:09 schrieb Bill Bolton:
It seems to me that one coach of the four car set was totally
destroyed
The first coach was destroyed to the black line I put onto this photo of an older unit:
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SwissRail/photos/albums/1657893705>

This part contains electric gear and the cab. Passenger compartment is to rhe right of the black line and that part remained intact. See photos 4 and 5 of this new page:

<http://www.nachrichten.at/oberoesterreich/Zugunglueck-in-Linz-mit-fuenf-Verletzten;art4,2658631,C::cme204100,1803255>

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Max Wyss
 

Have another look at the pictures. The passenger compartment of the first
car is indeed intact. The carbody got bent in an area where there are no
passengers (normally), and the remaining section to the cab is filled with
equipment.

I agree that it looks pretty bad, and the end car is totalled. But the end
car broke where the least damage was inflicted to the people on board.


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Bill Bolton
 

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 09:40:00 +0200, Marcus wrote:

< The cab should be less stable than the passenger
compartment. Looking at the photos shows that this principle worked. The
passenger compartment remained intact.
It seems to me that one coach of the four car set was totally
destroyed, so I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion?

Cheers

Bill

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Max Wyss
 

I am neither familiar with the regulations, but I think there is some
directive to protect people the most (well, makes sense, doesn't it?). That
means that energy absorbing elements and zones are where there is space for
deformation (actually, it must be plastic deformation, if it were only
elastic, no or only very little energy would be dissipated). The first
place is where the buffers are, and underneath the cab. The second place
(for FLIRT and KISS) would be the equipment cabinets behind the cab, and
third the entrance areas (which are weakened by the big door opening
anyways). With appropriate elements, quite a bit of energy can be
dissipated.

Note for the FRA regulations, they count more or less on elastic
deformation only, which actually makes such vehicles more dangerous.


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 27.08.2017 um 01:36 schrieb Max Wyss max@prodok.com [SwissRail]:
The European standards require that a certain amount of energy must be
absorbed before failure.
I don't know the details of the technical prescriptions but I know that another important point of European constructions is to determine at which point of the vehicle the above said failure should start.

AFAIK the Stadler units are designed so that the space for electrical gear behind the cab should be less stable than the passenger compartment. Looking at the photos shows that this principle worked. The passenger compartment remained intact.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Max Wyss
 

Actually, the FRA standard is based essentially on the buff strength. The
vehicle has to pass a static compression test, and that's it.

The European standards require that a certain amount of energy must be
absorbed before failure. If I am not too mistaken, the mass of the vehicle
is calculated into the equation to specify the energy absorbing elements.
As the kinetic energy is proportional to the mass, this would be relatively
easy to factor in.

That said, depending on what you look at, one comes to the conclusion that
the USAn style of crashworthiness is not really that good (see, for example
the Metrolink accident in Oxnard, CA, where a measly light truck with
trailer was able to badly derail the train (OK, there are IMHO quite a few
design flaws with those cab cars anyway).

As the USAn style does not take into account energy dissipation, the
deceleration at impact is greater by a magnitude then it is with the
European style. This has a considerable effect on how much damage happens
inside the train (in other words, how severely passengers get affected).


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Tim Johnson
 

Max, you bring up an interesting point. I'm completely unfamiliar with European crashworthiness standards, so bear with me. Is the standard based on the mass of just the lok? The amount of damage in a collision is going to depend on the mass of both trains, and the angle of impact between them; everything else being equal. Since trains are of arbitrary lengths, and thus masses, I don't see how crashworthiness has much meaning. So, I guess my question is what does crashworthiness really mean.
Thank,
--
Tim Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com) European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

[TOFU repaired by moderator]


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 25.08.2017 um 13:19 schrieb chris_j_wood@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
it is so badly damaged that it is possible that there is more than
one coach in the wreckage. If there had been passengers on that,
there would have been many deaths.
Your speculation is quite beyond reality. It was reported that it was a s test run and that 10 persons had been on the train. No fatalities.

It was a four-car unit and on aerial views it can be seen that three cars are nearly undamaged. The front car had its cab end ruined but the rest of the structure survived. Considering the fact that even the driver survived shows that crash-worthiness is quite good.

In the aerial veiw the point of impact can quite well be determined.
The video shows that the train with the Vectron had "somewhat" more
kinetic energy. From the pictures one can see that the collision was
head-on of the right side of the leading vehicles. The Westbahn unit
finally stopped after about 20 m, the freight train after about 60 m.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: BLS bids to take over Simplon car shuttle

OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 25.08.2017 um 01:16 schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
I wonder whether there may be some interest in running a through car
transport service from Domodossola to Kandersteg/Spiez in addition to
the shorter route to Brig.
This offer exists already for years

<https://www.bls.ch/de/fahren/unterwegs-mit/autoverlad/fahrplan>

scroll down to Kandersteg - Iselle

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Martin Baumann
 

What appears to have happened is that 4110-010 passed a signal at danger and struck the right side (in the freight's direction of travel) of the locomotive which crushed the front of the unit and derailed. The weight of the ore wagons may have been a factor.


A picture of the remains of the leading car after recovery can be seen here:


http://www.linzmobil.at/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5772#p181960


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Max Wyss
 

As far as I remember reading, the international crashworthiness standards
are based on an speed of impact of 36 km/h (could also be 32), in the case
of a head-on collision.

So, if the speed of impact is higher, there are no regulations, and it
mainly depends on the actual circumstances how the vehicles behave.
Considering the speed of impact of 80 km/h, the main energy absorbing
elements did do their job, and that did (most likely) save the driver's
life.

I am sure that the Austrian office which deals with accidents on rails will
publish according reports, where we can see what actually happened (from
the pictures, it is not quite clear, and from the media coverage, we are
still left to speculation (if more clarity exists, please let us know, and
I will stand corrected)). And I am convinced that the standardisation
organisms as well as the manufacturers are very interested in those
findings.


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

George Raymond
 

Each European country has regulations concerning crashworthiness and only allows compliant rolling stock on its network. The European Commission is engaged in a long-term effort to harmonise these regulations. A central basis for crashworthiness requirements is risk analysis that takes account of statistics on past collisions at each of a range of speeds. This helps explain why the US requires better crashworthiness in railway vehicles than in Europe: collisions and overspeed derailments are more frequent per train-km in the US than in Europe because historically, US signalling systems have tended to provide speed supervision and automatic train stop on fewer lines than in Europe. (This is slowly changing with the implementation of PTC.) The result of risk analysis is trains (and planes) that are crashworthy, but only to a limited extent.

This is a rough sketch of my understanding of the situation; comments are welcome.

George

[TOFU repaired by moderator]

.


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

csipromo
 

To me, it looked like the cab car of the Westbahn KISS had basically folded in two and had been bent over 90 degrees from true. The Vectron had damage to the cab (impact) and on the roof (from catenary).

The allowed speed at that point was 40 km/h, so that means if both trains were moving at speed, the impact was at least 80 km/h. It is only normal that the aluminum construction of the KISS would absorb more of the impact than the fibreglass/steel construction of the heavier Vectron locomotive.


As the KISS trainsets are or will be in service in multiple countries, they need to ensure that those trainsets meet established collision and derailment criteria to minimize eventual casualties.


Regards


Mike C


Re: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Chris Wood
 

Ouch, that looks really nasty. The driving coach of the KISS consist has been completely destroyed. At least I think it is just the driving coach; it is so badly damaged that it is possible that there is more than one coach in the wreckage. If there had been passengers on that, there would have been many deaths.

It is not clear from the reports as to whether this was a head-on or the KISS ran into the back of the freight train. But if that was the result of a 40kmph collision, then yes, I think questions have to be asked about the KISS design.


Re: BLS bids to take over Simplon car shuttle

csipromo
 

I had just read a report that the Re 4/4 (Re 425) were to be withdrawn from service starting this winter.
It is possible that a new operation might result in a delay in the withdrawal of some units from service. More than likely, these operations will involve the Re 485 or Re 465 as more and more Re 475 come into service and takeover the international routes outside Switzerland.
I wonder whether there may be some interest in running a through car transport service from Domodossola to Kandersteg/Spiez in addition to the shorter route to Brig.
This might provide an interesting alternative to the annual traffic jams on the Gotthard route during high traffic periods and would enable travellers to join the Nationalstrasse system in Spiez and save time.

Regards

Mike C


Re: BLS bids to take over Simplon car shuttle

csipromo
 

As BLS is phasing out the EWIII, it is quite possible that the EWIII pilot coaches and service cars will find use with any planned auto trains.


Re: Wow! An RhB Photo Coach

glenn allen
 

They run al the time, they are part of the new Alvra sets, reservation isn't possible but they are popular and you need to get in early in order to bag a seat. Second class only. there are no other opening windows in the Alvra sets, the Allegra railcar sets do have a few opening windows.

PLEASE SEND TEXT ONLY


Re: BLS bids to take over Simplon car shuttle

Martin Baumann
 

BLS Still have an ex SBB EW II Driving trailer 80-35 911 ex SBB 82-33 916 that could be used on the shuttle. I think only one set is required normally

3881 - 3900 of 29205