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Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Jonathan Marten
 

Thanks for all the responses. Obviously a military facility, then,
although looking at its state it seems unlikely to be in current use.
Yes, I knew about the similar tracks and doors near Brienzwiler, but
have not visited that on the ground.

--
Jonathan Marten http://www.keelhaul.me.uk
Twickenham, UK jjm2@keelhaul.me.uk


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Guerbetaler
 

Am 08.09.2019 um 15:05 schrieb Chris Wood via Groups.Io:
I think that it is probably not a coincidence that both these two
tunnel sidings (at Sarnen and Brienzwiler) are close to current or
former Swiss Air Force bases. Probably serving munition stores.
My dear, you are moving deeply into speculations. Have you served in the Swiss Army? Have you read books about the role of railways for the Swiss Army? There are such sidings far off airfields like the one at Steinerberg on SOB.

<https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.swissimage&E=2686183&N=1212137&zoom=12&crosshair=marker>

And don't forget that the Brünig line is in the area of the "Réduit". All logistic functions necessary for an army were available at underground places within the "Réduit".

As for Hawker Hunters, certainly underground bunkers were used for
the storage and servicing of these and other aircraft. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_cavern
But these bunkers were and are in places that can be reached from the airfields without crossing rivers or railways. In Brienzwiler you can easily detect where the place is, South of the airfield.

The site connected to the Brünig line had another function. The special thing here is, that it was a drive-through facility, as can be seen from the maps. S&W showed a later state where the Eastern point was gone.

You might go back in time looking at the maps. You will see that the airfield wasn't shown on the map even in 1990.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Chris Wood
 

I think that it is probably not a coincidence that both these two tunnel sidings (at Sarnen and Brienzwiler) are close to current or former Swiss Air Force bases. Probably serving munition stores.

As for Hawker Hunters, certainly underground bunkers were used for the storage and servicing of these and other aircraft. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_cavern


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

gordonwis
 

Look carefully - you'll see similar tracks and doors in various places around Switzerland...


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

StuartSmith
 

The line is clearly shown in the S&W atlas at Kerns-Kägiswil.


Re: Zürich Tram line 2

Martin Baumann
 

Anyone wishing to travel on the extension should note that after the Micafil stop the line is outside central zone 110 and a ticket valid in zone 154 will be required


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Barry Emmott <barry.emmott@...>
 

I’m a member of Swiss Railways Society and nearly 20 years ago spotted the Brienzwiler item during a trip on what was then still the Brünig Line, from Meiringen to Interlaken. I asked a senior member of the Society, who has Swiss ancestry, what was inside the doors. He replied “Hawker Hunters” which, considering the close proximity of the airfield, seemed quite reasonable. I have photos of the cliff-face, showing the line and the doors, taken from the train so not pin-sharp !! Baz


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

Guerbetaler
 

Am 07.09.2019 um 21:29 schrieb John Beaulieu:
So these locomotives have the ability to convert variable frequency
AC as generated by the traction motors to 16.7 Hz AC to be fed back
into the contact line? Otherwise they would be limited to one speed
in regenerative braking as the AC frequency generated by the motors
would depend on their rotational speed and the number of poles.
Aren't you thinking of three-phase motors?

Already the Crocodiles Ce 6/8" (1920-22) came with a regenerative brake which was designed by Behn-Eschenburg. I can't explain you in detail how it works. But basically you need an excitation with 16.7 Hz from the transformer/overhead line.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

John Beaulieu
 

Re 420/421/430 have been equipped with regenerative braking from
delivery. This is an important difference to BLS Re 425, which are
equipped with dc traction motors versus ac single phase motors on the
SBB locomotives.

So these locomotives have the ability to convert variable frequency AC as generated by the traction motors to 16.7 Hz AC to be fed back into the contact line? Otherwise they would be limited to one speed in regenerative braking as the AC frequency generated by the motors would depend on their rotational speed and the number of poles.

John Beaulieu


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Guerbetaler
 

Am 06.09.2019 um 18:12 schrieb Jonathan Marten:
Today there is no overhead wire and part of the rails seem to have been filled up with some sort of tar compound.
<https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-farbe&E=2662487&N=1195597&zoom=11&crosshair=marker>

Am 07.09.2019 um 09:30 schrieb Barry Emmott via Groups.Io:
You’ll find something similar to the north of the line near
Brienzwiler.
... which is now completely gone, but can be found on older maps:

<https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=de&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-farbe&layers=ch.swisstopo.zeitreihen,ch.bfs.gebaeude_wohnungs_register,ch.bav.haltestellen-oev,ch.swisstopo.swisstlm3d-wanderwege&layers_visibility=true,false,false,false&layers_timestamp=20111231,,,&E=2650695&N=1177502&zoom=9&crosshair=marker>

These tracks have become useless without freight wagons available.

In 1953 OKK (responsible for Army logistics) received meter gauge Tm 5 RACO 1423. In 2011 this Tm was given to ZB Historic:
<https://www.zbhistoric.ch/rollmaterial.php?fahrzeug=OKK_5>

Markus


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

csipromo
 

Sorry. Once again I keep referring to SBB Cargo International as SBBCI when the official label SBB IN is used.
I did not mean it as anything other than an abbreviation of SBB Cargo International to save typing time.

Is any more information about the separation between the new SBB Cargo and SBB IN (SBB Cargo International) known?
I am specifically curious about the impact (if any) of these changes on the tractive power.
The MRCE (ES64F4) and Vectron (ELL, LokRoll and Suedleasing) machines were leased by SBB IN
According to Markus, the Re 474, 482, 484 are registered with SBBC.
If SBBCI (SBB Cargo Italia) now falls under SBB IN (separate from SBB Cargo), what will happen to the Re 474 and 484s routinely used by SBBCI?
I guess that the same thing could be said about SBB Cargo Deutschland and the Re 482s.

Regards

Mike C


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Barry Emmott <barry.emmott@...>
 

You’ll find something similar to the north of the line near (I think – memory hazy !!) Brienzwiler.
Baz


Re: Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Guerbetaler
 

Am 06.09.2019 um 18:12 schrieb Jonathan Marten:
Is there any information available on this branch
I'm sorry, this is secret. :-)


Zentralbahn spur and tunnel near Sarnen

Jonathan Marten
 

There is a mysterious tunnel entrance visible just to the east of the A8
autobahn, about 1.5km north of the Sarnen Nord junction. I looked at
this on the ground a couple of months ago, and there is a spur line off
the ZB line north of Sarnen Nord station, crossing the Kägiswilerstrasse
and Kernserstrasse and ending up under the A8 bridge, with that tunnel
entrance just on the far side. The rails go all the way up to the solid
metal door.

On the Google Street View image at

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@46.9099664,8.2628307,3a,63.4y,78.58h,91.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG4CADyTTKwmhu2yaJngzGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

the tracks look usable but slightly overgrown, and the catenary wire is
still in place. Today there is no overhead wire and part of the rails
seem to have been filled up with some sort of tar compound.

Is there any information available on this branch, or what is obviously
some sort of underground facility that it connects to? Have I stumbled
on the site of the Zentralbahn's Strategic Reserve (old uk.railway
joke)?

--
Jonathan Marten http://www.keelhaul.me.uk
Twickenham, UK jjm2@keelhaul.me.uk


Re: BLS 171

Martin Baumann
 

165 has been preserved by BLS Historic. It is unclear how long the locos will remain in traffic


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

Guerbetaler
 

Am 05.09.2019 um 21:26 schrieb John Beaulieu:
Interesting that this just concerns domestic SBB Cargo operations and
doesn't include SBBCI.i
The companies involved are those that took over the LCL business (label
Cargo Domizil) from SBB some 20 years ago.

I wonder about the sale of the Re482 locomotives as they would seem to be logical replacements for the Re420/421/430 locomotives which have rheostatic electrical braking rather than regenerative braking.
Re 420/421/430 have been equipped with regenerative braking from
delivery. This is an important difference to BLS Re 425, which are
equipped with dc traction motors versus ac single phase motors on the
SBB locomotives.

Will the fact that the older locomotives are fully depreciated be enough to offset the electrical power costs that could be saved
using the newer locomotives, The newer locomotives have meters to
measure electric power usage, while I doubt that the older
locomotives have such equipment. Also with the slow spread of ETCS
signalling across Switzerland, will it be cost effective to continue
to equip older locomotives with the necessary equipment?
SBB equipped also older locomotives with meters. Thus, the limiting factor for the use of Re 420 etc. will be the rise of maintenance costs.

ETCS L1LS is now complete and all locomotives can work on it. Quite an important number of locomotives has been equipped to work on L2. But adding further lines to L2 operation will only start in 2025 or even later.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

Guerbetaler
 

Am 05.09.2019 um 01:26 schrieb csipromo via Groups.Io:
My question is how will this affect operations and locomotive ownership?
good question. wrong audience... :-)

The Re 474, 482, 484 were owned by SBB Cargo. I don't know if some
were registered with SBB Cargo Italia or SBB Cargo.
all registered with SBBC. SBBCI has no vehicle registered anywhere.

The Vectrons (LokRoll) were leased by SBB Cargo International.
yes, SBBIN. But you can't see this from the inscriptions.

As far as I know, the latest lease deal (Suedleasing) was also
SBBCI.
no, SBBIN

AFAIK the ELL (Vectron) and MRCE (ES64F4) leases were also under
SBBCI.
AFAIK SBBIN


Re: BLS 171

Clive Dean
 

Are any of these preserved yet? If not are there plans to do so? How long
are they likely to remain active for?


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

csipromo
 

SBB Cargo is the freight division of SBB. They sold 35% to a Consortium made up of several transport companies. I guess that because Hupac is a partner in SBB Cargo International, they probably would have opposed the deal, so the solution was to make SBBCI a separate division under SBB, which I guess would completely separate the two divisions from each other. I don't know how this will work. Will SBB Cargo only handle domestic traffic and contracts with other operators (DB Schenker, etc) or will they eventually start competing for international business and start their own operations outside of Switzerland?

Will SBBCI rely on it's own traction or will it still work with SBB Cargo or SBB for transportation through Switzerland?

I know that the Re 482s were seeing less demand since the economic turndown (2008) and that they are limited to CH/DE and maybe AT while newer leased machines can operate in D/A/CH/I/NL (the main north-south corridor). It is cheaper to lease locomotives with ECTS and multination homologation than to adapt the older machines. I am surprised that SBB Cargo did not work out some kind of lease exchange with MRCE or Railpool where the 482 would go for German/Austrian operators and SBB Cargo would get a break on new leases.

Regards

Mike C


Re: SBB Cargo Changes

John Beaulieu
 

Interesting that this just concerns domestic SBB Cargo operations and doesn't include SBBCI. I wonder about the sale of the Re482 locomotives as they would seem to be logical replacements for the Re420/421/430 locomotives which have rheostatic electrical braking rather than regenerative braking. Will the fact that the older locomotives are fully depreciated be enough to offset the electrical power costs that could be saved using the newer locomotives, The newer locomotives have meters to measure electric power usage, while I doubt that the
older locomotives have such equipment. Also with the slow spread of ETCS signalling across Switzerland, will it be cost effective to continue to equip older locomotives with the necessary
equipment?

John Beaulieu

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