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Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 15.11.2020 um 22:33 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
As the Vauban was not part of the SBB-FS Joint venture, it did not
come under the Cisalpino banner.
Cisalpino traffic with loco-hauled trains started in July 2004 from Zürich (EA 4/2004) and was extended in December 2004 to trains Basel - Bern - Milano and Genève - Milano. In December 2005 the remaining trains (via Luzern and some more from Zürich) became Cisalpino trains.

By December 2004 the Vauban was restricted to Brig and there was no reason to include Italian coaches after that date.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: [Swiss Rail] Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Chuck Higdon
 

Hi Markus and Mike, thank you for all the great information to answer Alan's question. I have learned a lot and have copied the links for future reference. Along with your comments. Very happy to have read all that you have posted on this topic. This will allow me to also put together good consists of the equipment I have purchased without a clue as to when it was built and run. As some of my layout is Euro themed.

Thanks for the postings.


Take care,
Chuck Higdon
New You Tube just before disassmebly of my layout for a move.
https://youtu.be/dxeedqMj37A


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 

I said the last delivery was in 1985. I meant to say that the last order was 1985. It is quite possible that deliveries continued for another 3 years.
I also said that subsequent deliveries of 2nd class coaches came from the UIC-Z series. I mean subsequent to 1985. The first delivery of the new Bz coaches came around 1987. Those coaches were painted to match the existing Gran Comfort coaches, in the Bandiera livery. Prior to that, 2nd class rolling stock had come from the UIC-X production.

I hope that clears up my statement.

Regards

Mike C


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 

As the Vauban was not part of the SBB-FS Joint venture, it did not come under the Cisalpino banner.

Regards

Mike C


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 

If I remember correctly, the rolling stock in the "Iris" and "Vauban" frequently changed. There were times when SNCB wanted to abandon the connection and SBB took over the operation of the run.
I have photos of the Vauban from 2000 (H.D. Andreas/Bahnprofil) where the train is entirely composed of SBB coaches. In 1998, I have a photo with mixed SNCB I6 in Memling livery, C1 Orange and with at least one SBB EC coach. In 1999, it was mainly composed of SNCB (I6 and I10) coaches. Around 2003, it contained a mix of SNCB and FS coaches. Some of the photos I have seen, the train had one of the SNCB ex-SNCF Grill Express Restaurant coaches.

1996: http://www.belrail.be/media/images/compositions/ec90a.jpg
1997: http://www.belrail.be/media/images/compositions/ec90b.jpg
2003: http://www.belrail.be/media/images/compositions/ec91.jpg
2004: http://www.belrail.be/media/images/compositions/ec91d.jpg
2006: https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/frankreich~e-loks-ac~bb-15000-nez-cass/65632/ec-91-8222vauban8220-von-bruessel-nach.html
2007: https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/Schweiz~Wagen~Personenwagen/541505/der-internationale-schnellzug-vauban-ist-einer.html
2011: https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/Belgien~E-Loks~BR+20/532376/sncb-lok-2002-befoerderte-am-5august-2011.html

Some years, the northbound run included additional coaches, including FS coaches to Basel, including one of the FS Restaurants in Bandiera livery (with graffiti). I think that a SNCB Restaurant was attached in Basel for the run to Brussels. I think that some schedules may also have included some couchette coaches and possibly sleepers too. I do not know if the night coaches went to Basel or continued to a point beyond. They might have connected to Amsterdam, Hamburg or possibly to the Komet (Copenhagen).

Regards,

Mike C


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 15.11.2020 um 01:54 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
By Winter 2004, most of the coaches were in the XMPR IC/InterCityPlus
colors and then in 2005 by the new Cisalpino livery.
Interestingly the "Vauban" Brussels - Milano kept Bandiera coaches right to the end. I have photos from 2004 in Thun and Bern. Only one C1 livery and that was an SNCB coach.

Markus


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Alan McMillan
 

From this we can say that Bandiera livery was seen in Switzerland from
1983 on restaurant coaches and from 1987 on other stock.
Thanks Markus. Your information has shown me that my layout really cannot have Bandiera liveried stock as the earliest appearance of it would be on restaurant cars in 1983. My period is ideally before that so I'll stick with slate grey and red/grey trains with some C1 liveried additions together with my favourite stock, the Acme Mediolanum TEE liveried eight car hybrid FS/DB set.

Alan


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 15.11.2020 um 02:03 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
he last delivery of GC coaches was in 1985. Subsequent deliveries of
second class rolling stock came from the UIC-Z series.
I'm sorry but this is wrong. Delivery of the second series of GC coaches was only terminated in 1988. And there had at no stage been second class coaches of the GC type.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 15.11.2020 um 01:54 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I would like to know if the TEE coaches still required the generator
car or whether they were modified or simply did not require it for
domestic traffic.
If you could read what I wrote you would have had the answer before you asked the question. They got a "convertitore statico da 45 kVA (da 65 kVA sulle ristoranti)" for all international voltages.

Moreover the TEE didn't come with a generator car (as was usual by SNCF and RENFE) but with an inverter car that could produce 660 V three phase current from the standard current available in each country, brought to the coaches by a separate cable.

"L'unico veicolo dipendente dalla macchina era il furgone, che prelava l'energia necessaria tramite la condotta del REC alle quattro tensioni del RIC (3000 V cc, 1500 V cc e ca, 1000 V ca 16 2/3 Hz) che veniva convertita a 660 V ca 50 Hz trifase, mediante un gruppo rotante moto-alternatore da 240 kVA."

Citations from the Principe book.

so, the technical development from 1969 to the 1980ies allowed to replace a central rotating inverter (of 240 kVA) per train with static inverters (of 45 kVA) on each coach.

To compare: The Eurofima coaches of 1977, of which SBB had 20 and FS 100, had a static inverter of 35 kVA (EA 7/77).

Markus


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 15.11.2020 um 02:03 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
he last delivery of GC coaches was in 1985. Subsequent deliveries of
second class rolling stock came from the UIC-Z series.
I'm sorry but this is wrong. Delivery of the second series of GC coaches was only terminated in 1988. And there had at nos stage been second calss coaches of the GC type.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 01:20 AM, Guerbetaler wrote:


https://scalaenne.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/canaletto1995johannespadberg.jpg
This site seems to have some interesting information:
https://scalaenne.wordpress.com/2015/11/07/livree-fs-e-trenitalia-bandiera/

The TEE coaches stopped running in the Mediolanum and Lemano in 1984 and were adapted to the same standards as the domestic coaches.
By 1990, they had been repainted in the Bandiera livery to match the rest of the fleet.
The last delivery of GC coaches was in 1985. Subsequent deliveries of second class rolling stock came from the UIC-Z series.

Regards

Mike C


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 

According to Mr Google, the "Bandiera" livery was introduced as of 1972 for domestic "TEE" services:
TEE Cycnus (Milano-Ventimiglia)
TEE Adriatico (Milano-Rimini-Bari)
TEE Vesuvio (Milano-Napoli)

In 1974, they added two more trains:
TEE Ambrosiano (Milano-Roma) and TEE Aurora (Rome-Reggio Calabria). The second lasted only one year before being converted to a night train.

The rolling stock for these domestic TEE trains was added to orders for the red/beige TEE stock, but was delivered in the new Bandiera livery with the red stripe.
After the end of international TEE services, most of those trains were converted to IC. The domestic TEE trains followed in 1982.
The major international runs saw the first introduction of the new Eurofima coaches as of 1977. The advantage was that the new coaches did not require the generator car that the TEE/Gran Comfort coaches required. As the FS had only a limited number of the new coaches, some consists continued to include the TEE coaches. Once second class was added and the trains were relabelled as InterCity trains, the FS deployed the new Eurofima second class coaches in those trains.
At the same time, in view of the domestic TEE trains also switching to InterCity trains, the FS ordered a series of new second class coaches, which were based on the design of the Eurofima coaches, including air conditioning and the compartment design. The new coaches were delivered in the Bandiera livery, but had a blue stripe instead of the red stripe used on the Gran Comfort stripe.
I would like to know if the TEE coaches still required the generator car or whether they were modified or simply did not require it for domestic traffic.
The GC coaches were always numbered 50 83, so they were never authorized for international traffic. The second class coaches of the Next Generation of the Eurofima type were numbered 51/61 83 and were equipped for international traffic. As the FS required additional coaches for international trains as new routes were added, the Bandiera coaches started to appear in consists, but the top tier trains were entirely made up of the C1 (Orange) Eurofima rolling stock. In Switzerland, most of the trains running FS stock was either made up of the C1 Eurofima material or by UIC-X and older types in the Rosso-Fegato livery (Red/grey).
In the 90s, the Top tier rolling stock was to be painted in the new Bigrigio livery, but it was not too long before the decision was taken to adopt the new XMPR livery, so by the end of the 90s, it was common to see trains operating with a mix of C1, Bigrigio and Bandiera liveried coaches. Most often, the coaches in C1 were the first class Az. The second class coaches were commonly in the Bigrigio and Bandiera liveries.
The next time I saw such trains (2003), it was a mix of XMPR, Bigrigio, Bandiera and C1. By Winter 2004, most of the coaches were in the XMPR IC/InterCityPlus colors and then in 2005 by the new Cisalpino livery.

Regards

Mike C


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 14.11.2020 um 19:41 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I don't think that the older Gran Comfort (ex-TEE) coaches continued
to run outside of Italy, as those coaches required the use of a
generator coach to provide lights and power (heating).
"Le carrozze italiane" by Evaristo Principe (ISBN 88 -85105-05-X, 2000) says that the TEE coaches were rebuilt for autonomous working instead of getting three-phase current from an inverter van. However, the number of coaches wasn't very important, only 18 first class and 5 dining cars. I have only found a photo of a dining car in Switzerland so far (1995).
<https://scalaenne.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/canaletto1995johannespadberg.jpg>

The 20 dining cars of 1983/87 had the same type of roof as the Z1 coaches. Thus you can easily distinguish the original GC/TEE coaches.

Markus


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

glyn.jones
 

For those that haven't seen it, this is my RhB Video from 1987 and 1989. The
very last part was filmed in Poschiavo on the Friday before the 100 years
RhB celebrations and the station staff were almost too busy "playing" with
the exhibits to notice the arrival of the train from St. Moritz and which
platform it was going to. https://vimeo.com/79676422

Glyn


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Alan McMillan
 

Thanks Mike. That's just what I wanted to know.

Regards

Alan


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Guerbetaler
 

Am 14.11.2020 um 16:47 schrieb Markus:
Am 14.11.2020 um 11:39 schrieb Alan McMillan:
layout based in the 70s and early 80s and was wondering when the
Italian State Railways (FS) introduced their "Bandiera" livery of
ivory and grey with red, and sometimes light blue, lining?
Are you speaking of these coaches?
<https://scalaenne.wordpress.com/2015/11/07/livree-fs-e-trenitalia-bandiera/>
(including a photo from Frutigen by Werner Hardmeier)
If I'm not mistaken, this livery was found on two type of coaches

1) Carozze Gran-Comfort (GC), built 1969-87, but most of them only for internal services, numbered 50 83 .... Only first class, restaurant and vans existed. Those for international service came in TEE colours, numbered 61 83 ... After the demise of the TEE trains, they got the Bandiera livery, but I haven't found, when exactly this happened. In 1983 and 87 more dining cars for international services arrived. One of these can be seen in the Hardmeier photo.

2) Carrozze Z1 (UIC type Z1) of first and second class, introduced 1987. For the second class the Bandiera livery was applied with blue stripes, first class with red stripes as on the GC coaches.

From this we can say that Bandiera livery was seen in Switzerland from 1983 on restaurant coaches and from 1987 on other stock.

Still to be found out, when the former TEE coaches got Bandiera livery.

Markus


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Alan McMillan
 

Are you speaking of these coaches?
<https://scalaenne.wordpress.com/2015/11/07/livree-fs-e-trenitalia-bandiera/>
(including a photo from Frutigen by Werner Hardmeier)
Those are the ones Markus.

Alan


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

Andy Micklethwaite
 

Here are the YouTube links for the videos. https://youtu.be/X5zw4jZkCfs Swiss Rails 1989 part 1 and https://youtu.be/kfEH2koH0UY Swiss Rails 1989 part 2
Many thanks for posting. Some excellent memories. Also some things you no longer see - fly-shunting of passenger rolling stock. Are Loks still cut into trains? (part 1 about 4 mins in)

Andy Mick.


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 


Re: Vintage Swiss rail video from 1989

csipromo
 

The Bandiera livery was introduced in the mid-1970s as FS started repainting the TEE Coaches into coaches for domestic traffic. In international traffic, the newly delivered "Eurofima" coaches replaced the TEE coaches. As the TEE fleet had been exclusively first class, FS ordered a number of Eurofima inspired second class coaches, to be painted in the bandiera livery, with the difference that the second class coaches had a blue instead of red stripe.

I have seen some of the UIC-Z coaches in bandiera livery in trains in Switzerland and likely into Germany. I don't think that the older Gran Comfort (ex-TEE) coaches continued to run outside of Italy, as those coaches required the use of a generator coach to provide lights and power (heating).

So, if you are modelling Switzerland, Austria or Germany, you should limit yourself to FS TEE coaches with generator car or to FS UIC Z coaches (Eurofima, VSE derivative coaches) in C1 (Orange), Bandiera (Bz), Bigrigio (Az, Bz, etc) or XMPR. (Green/Offwhite)

Regards

Mike C

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