Date   

Dampfverein 241.a.65 4-day charter 13-16 May 2021

davey
 

4-day Extrazug run by Dampfverein 241.a.65 for a Swiss church youth organisation.

From Zürich with Widmer Rail Services Re 4/4 430 115 throughout, probably sticking for all 4 days.

Day 1 Route (13.05.21) :

Zurich Hbf (P11) – Oerlikon – Wetzikon (4 hour break) – Rapperswil – Pfäffikon SZ – Biberbrugg – Arth Goldau – Luzern P10 (reverse) – Carriage Siding 301 (Loco RR, reverse) – Luzern P10 (reverse) – Schachen (45 minute break, cake was brought on for the passengers) – Konolfingen – Thun – Interlaken Ost.


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 14.05.2021 um 08:22 schrieb Alan McMillan:
I was always under the impression that 50 85 was only the SBB?
As you say, it WAS.

In 1964 the freight stock got 12-digit numbers defined by UIC. Third and fourth digit indicated the owner. The following codes were given:
85 SBB-CFF-FFS
62 SP = Schweizerische Privatbahnen, Güterwagenpool
63 BLS

Other companies did not apply 12 digit numbers. But around 1990 SBB wanted the other companies to use UIC-numbers as well. In a first move, SOB and BT numbered their newly delivered EW IV 50 62 ...., even if this code was defined as "freight car pool of Swiss private railways".

But things moved, and UIC allowed to use 34-39 and 45-49 in a national context. In Siwtzerland 46 meant SZU, in Austria it meant GKB.

In 2006 OTIF and ERA took over, meaning that no longer it was a task of the railways to define the numbers but it was now the states. Third and fourth digit of the number became country codes instead of company codes. 85 now stands for Switzerland, no longer for SBB.

The few "private" codes had to be cleared. 62 became the code for Montenegro, 63 hasn't yet been attributed. To indicated the keeper of a vehicle, its VKM (Vehicle Keeper Marking) is now put behind the number.

It took some time until this change was done on the vehicles. In 2012 I could take a photo of two BLS vehicles, one numbered after the old and one numbered after the new system

Thus, driving trailer 951 of BLS originally had the number
50 63 20-33 951-4
and now became
50 63 80-35 951-3 CH-BLS

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:20120801Y173a_B5063_20-33704-7--Bt5085_80-35951-3_CH-BLS.jpg

Freight stock was part of a wagon pool of Swiss Private Railways. In 1950 all wagons got new numbers and instead of the company only "SP" was written. Small companies had the lower numbers, the big companies (EBT/VHB/SMB, BT, BLS/SEZ/GBS/BN) had four-digit numbers. With the introduction of UIC-numbers these wagons should get numbers with 62 as owner code. Many wagons were withdrawn before that but BLS had an important number of "SP" wagons with 21 62 ... numbers. Last acquisition were four bogie cement wagons in 1972
31 62 9322 000-003 SP
At the end of the century, the pool was formally dissolved and these wagons became
31 63 9322 000-003 BLS
2002 these wagons were sold to Vigier Ciments at the time as private wagons
33 85 9322 000-003[P] SBB-CFF
2006 this changed to
33 85 9322 000-003 CH-VICEM
They are still around.


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 14.05.2021 um 00:07 schrieb Alan McMillan:
- green with diaphragms (1962-69)
- blue cream with diaphragms (1969-87)
- blue cream with rubber connections (1987-91)
- blue cream with rubber connections and blue (!) sliding doors. (1990-merger)
Thanks for this. I’m intent on creating one of the coaches in its 1969-87 condition. The number I have is 50 63 20-33 880-9
The check digit is wrong, it should be 50 63 20-33 880-5

This number is correct for 1969-91. August 1987 the coach came back with rubber connections and the new livery. This coach was among the first EW I to get the (old) blue/cream livery in order to be used with ABDe 4/8 and Bt. It was rare to see them somewhere else, but it could happen after about 1982.

Second coach in the same livery 1969-87 was 50 63 20-33 881-3. A black and white photo of this coach can be found in:
Claude Jeanmaire: ''Die elektrischen und Diesel-Triebfahrzeuge schweizerischer Eisenbahnen. Zweiter Teil: Die Berner Alpenbahn-Gesellschaft (BLS).'' Archiv Nr. 12, Verlag Eisenbahn, Villigen AG 1972, ISBN 3-85649-012-0

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: BLS Liveries

Alan McMillan
 

But GBS only owned two EW I and they changed numbers during their lives.
Thus it's better you tell me, of which coach in which stage you need the number:
- green with diaphragms (1962-69)
- blue cream with diaphragms (1969-87)
- blue cream with rubber connections (1987-91)
- blue cream with rubber connections and blue (!) sliding doors. (1990-merger)
Hi Markus

Thanks for this. I’m intent on creating one of the coaches in its 1969-87 condition. The number I have is 50 63 20-33 880-9

Regards

Alan


Re: BLS Liveries

Alan McMillan
 

I was always under the impression that 50 85 was only the SBB?

Alan


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 14.05.2021 um 05:48 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
The Lima set 149783 had BLS, BN, SEZ and GBS coaches. All of them had 50 85 (BLS) markings.
I find the following coach numbers for this set:
BLS A 50 63 89-33 827-4
BN B 50 63 20-33 707-3
GBS B 50 63 20-33 891-5
SEZ B 50 63 20-33 871-4

These numbers are 50% correct. 891 belongs to BN and 707 is a sliding door coach.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 14.05.2021 um 05:48 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I don't think that any of the BLS Group used 62.
Even if you don't think it, they DID.

Markus, Gürbetal


Re: BLS Liveries

csipromo
 

The Lima set 149783 had BLS, BN, SEZ and GBS coaches. All of them had 50 85 (BLS) markings.
SOB and BT had 50 47 and 50 48, but at some point, both were using 62, which was a designation for KTUs in Switzerland.
I don't think that any of the BLS Group used 62.

Regards

Mike C


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 13.05.2021 um 19:53 schrieb Alan McMillan:
On top of the debate about the BLS shade of blue in the 1976 livery, I'm also doing lettering for an EWI belonging to the GBS. Can anyone, and it's probably you, Markus(!) tell me what the UIC code for the GBS was? I'm assuming it wasn't 63 as used by the BLS?
Numbering in the BLS group would give an article almost as long as liveries...

There were only three official UIC codes for Swiss railway companies:
62 SP
63 BLS
85 SBB

All freight cars of the BLS group had 62 numbers, all passenger vehicles and service vehicles had 63. But GBS only owned two EW I and they changed numbers during their lives. Thus it's better you tell me, of which coach in which stage you need the number:
- green with diaphragms (1962-69)
- blue cream with diaphragms (1969-87)
- blue cream with rubber connections (1987-91)
- blue cream with rubber connections and blue (!) sliding doors. (1990-merger)

Markus


Re: BLS Liveries

Alan McMillan
 

On top of the debate about the BLS shade of blue in the 1976 livery, I'm also doing lettering for an EWI belonging to the GBS. Can anyone, and it's probably you, Markus(!) tell me what the UIC code for the GBS was? I'm assuming it wasn't 63 as used by the BLS?

Regards

Alan


Re: BLS Liveries

Alan McMillan
 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interlaken_Ost_BLS_721-AB813-15-724_19831014A020-15a.jpg

I agree, Markus, that in your picture, the blues are almost the same and could easily be accounted for by fading although I still think if you look at the join between the NPZ car and the AB, the AB’s blue seems to have the tiniest touch more green in it and appears slightly brighter. The cream however is a good bit different. The AB has a milky coloured upper band whereas the NPZs have a more yellowish tint. The thing is, with that photograph of the 1976 liveried EWI I posted, the BLS insignia and numbering are very bright and clearly not faded in the way that was often seen when it dulled with age to an old gold colour and it implies that the blue is not faded either; it doesn’t look faded, i.e., it doesn’t have that aged and weathered matt finish of the coach to its left even though that coach is obviously in the more recent layout with the change of colour lower down the bodyside. Other elements of the main EWI do tend to give the impression that the paint is newish…the first class stripe is a vibrant yellow rather than an insipid, faded one (yellow fades badly and quite quickly in sunlight) and the whole coach has a fresh look to it.

I have a Roco EWII in the 1976 livery and although the prototype is fictitious, the colour is lighter than the blue they used for the EWIVs and is close to the blue in the EWI photo in question. Roco must have known something about it for it to be different from the blue they used on the EWIVs.

I also agree that variations caused by fading and other factors mean that unless you’re going for an ex-works finish, there is a good bit of leeway to be taken in the choice of colours for any vehicle, however, I do feel an email to the BLS publicity department coming on.

Alan


Re: BLS Liveries

gordonwis
 

On Wednesday, 12 May 2021, 21:46:13 BST, Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@sunrise.ch> wrote:
I found a photo, unfortunately not dated, thst shows freshly painted AB
and BD in new livery and in the middle a B in the 1976/77 livery. To me
the new livery seems to be darker blue. The repainted A 808 of 2011 is
clearly darker than this B in original 19766/77 blue.
I think the centre coach could just be faded by use and being parked in sunny sidings

btw the original 'almost violet' blue is clearly seen on older phots of the BLS blue 1st generation EMUs


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 13.05.2021 um 06:18 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I think that the coach in the original blue/beige livery has probably faded from exposure to the elements.
[...] but I don't think that BLS changed the shade of blue [...]
I'm sure that the blue of 1976 (EW I) and following (NPZ, EW IV) was different from the blue of 1935-64 ("Blaue Pfeile", a few EW I). I have seen the difference with my own eyes so many times. I also tried to photograph it, but that wasn't easy. With Kodak film developed on Fuji paper etc. the effects of the photo lab was mostly more important than the natural difference. When digital photography arrived, the old vehicles were gone.

It is also sure, that the coach of 1976 depicted in the link I gave, had faded out from exposure. The interesting point is, that the blue of 1976 faded out much more than earlier and later applications. I was told that the technique of application has an important influence on the fading process. I remember a generation of FO vehicles whose red finally got a whitish aspect. In my picture of 1983, which must have been the first BLS picture I took at all, you can see two NPZ motor coaches with an AB repainted in 1976/77. After 6 years the blue was still much the same as on the NPZ.  But you can clearly recognize the lower "Farbtrennkante" (colour division line) of the NPZ (and later repaints). The photo was taken with an average tourist camera, which belonged to my mother, on Kodak 135 film. It was scanned last year directly from the film.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Interlaken_Ost_BLS_721-AB813-15-724_19831014A020-15a.jpg

Even if BLS only had two different shades of blue, the real variety was much more important because of the fading process. You alaways have to take into account, when the last repaint was.

Markus, Gürbetal





Re: BLS Liveries

csipromo
 

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 10:46 PM, Guerbetaler wrote:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/184625997@N03/48930278098/in/photostream/
I think that the coach in the original blue/beige livery has probably faded from exposure to the elements.
I know that BT changed the shade of green at some point, but I don't think that BLS changed the shade of blue, unless at some point, they adapted some EWI to match the colours of the EWIV, which may have been a little different.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/20070224S674r_837.jpg/800px-20070224S674r_837.jpg

Regards

Mike C


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 12.05.2021 um 22:36 schrieb Guerbetaler:
A 808 is fresh and shiny as it should be shortly after a paint job.
I found a photo, unfortunately not dated, thst shows freshly painted AB and BD in new livery and in the middle a B in the 1976/77 livery. To me the new livery seems to be darker blue. The repainted A 808 of 2011 is clearly darker than this B in original 19766/77 blue.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/184625997@N03/48930278098/in/photostream/

Markus


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 11.05.2021 um 19:10 schrieb Alan McMillan:
I've attached two pictures...a before and after. The older livery does look a good bit brighter and since it's coupled to a coach with the later version you can see the difference. 
https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/schweiz~bls-bern-loetschberg-simplon-bahn~sonstiges/484001/bls---1-kl-personenwagen-mit.html

Looking at the pictures of the second coach and both coaches together,
https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/schweiz~bls-bern-loetschberg-simplon-bahn~sonstiges/484003/bls---rangierlok-tem-22-225.html
https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/schweiz~bls-bern-loetschberg-simplon-bahn~sonstiges/484000/bls---1-kl-personenwagen-a.html
I don't see a real difference between the two coaches. The photos were taken in 2011 (by Hp. Teutschmann) and show the freshly repainted A 808 in old livery and the not yet repainted A 806 still in the new livery. The colour of A 806 is a bit faded out but basically it's the same. A 808 is fresh and shiny as it should be shortly after a paint job.

Markus


Re: BLS Liveries

Alan McMillan
 

Hi Mike
I've attached two pictures...a before and after. The older livery does look a good bit brighter and since it's coupled to a coach with the later version you can see the difference.

Regards
Alan

https://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/schweiz~bls-bern-loetschberg-simplon-bahn~sonstiges/484001/bls---1-kl-personenwagen-mit.html
[The second picture couldn't be located and the copyright is not known.]


11114

Martin Baumann
 

11114 and EWI/II worked 19:06 Basel-Zürich (31577 replacing 77) last night in place of an unavailable ICE. This is reportedly the last ever passenger use of the stock.

Info from David Prior and Bahnforum.ch


Re: RhB : 705

David Prior
 

On 10 May 2021, at 20:21, David Prior via groups.io wrote:

Having been “Abgestellt” since 14th Jan, a nice surprise to see 705 back out and diagrammed to work Ilanz trips 5725/5732 and 5757/5766 tomorrow
... and straight back to work ... 705 is diagrammed 4709/4718 Ilanz mixed tomorrow Weds 12th, plus 1358 St. Moritz-Landquart.

In addition 702 is “pre-allocated” for 1723 on Thursday ; the Rheinschlucht trips have a weekday operation 13th May (Ascension public holiday). Same on Whit Monday, 24th.


Re: BLS Liveries

Guerbetaler
 

Am 11.05.2021 um 15:41 schrieb Alan McMillan:
Has anyone got any information on whether the BLS changed its blue and cream shades when they updated their rolling stock lettering from B L S to BLS Lötschbergbahn? To my eye the earlier blue looks lighter and the cream has a yellowish tint, whereas the newer version's blue appears darker and the cream is more an off-white shade.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLS-Farben

The first blue, applied between 1935 and 1970 was dark, almost violet.

The EW I of 1976/77 seemed to come in a lighter blue.

In 1982 the blue didn't reach as near to the windows as before and the ends of the vehicles bcame all blue. It's possible that this blue was a bit darker than the one of 1976/77, but is clearly not as dark as the version until 1970.

The incriptions changed independetly from the shade of blue, even dark blue emus appeared with [BLS ] Lötschbergbahn inscriptions. The first NPZ delivery still had the conventional wide BLS, SEZ, GBS and BN initials. After 2006 the still remaining coaches got the former RM emblem with "bls" inscription.

Markus, Gürbetal

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