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Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@...>
 

Leonard Bulger wrote:
I apologize to the esteemed list manager about putting the answer
after question. The web application that I was using to read
my home email from work doesn't allow me to edit or move the quoted
reply at all. I spent about 10 minutes trying to do it and ran out
of lunch hour.
I am sorry but I don't know Apple Mail you use. I can only give some
general hints:
- Choose "plain text" format, not HTML or "Rich Text".
- If you don't get on with your mail program, use Yahoo's online editor.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SwissRail/messages
Select the message you want to answer. Open it (by clicking on
the subject) and then click "Reply" but /don't/ use the Rich-Text Editor.

As for the WRm RIC used in the Bavaria, it was air conditioned, but
it was based on the UIC Type-X. These diners were put into service
in 1967. They were originally painted red, but later were painted
orange to match the Eurofima coaches. The Eurofima coaches aka type
UIC-Z went into service starting in 1977. The Bavaria became loco
hauled in 1971. The type SBB X coaches have Schlieren trucks and
folding doors while the Eurofimas have sliding doors and Fiat
trucks. To further complicate things, SBB had un-air conditioned
second class type X coaches painted in the orange Eurofima paint
scheme.
The definition of what is X and what is Z has changed over the years.
First there was only X (and Y), then Z was added and finally split
into Z1 and Z2.

"UIC-Z" is NOT a synonym for "Eurofima coach". All Eurofima coaches
are UIC-Z1, but not the other way round. The valid definition is this:

26.4 m length and 6 seats per compartment = type X or Z
standard compartment dimension = X (12 in 2nd or 10 in 1st class)
more spacious compartment = Z (11 in 2nd or 9 in 1st class)
no air condition = X or Z2
air condition = Z1

Thus, only the first hundered SBB Bm 22-70 000-099 are type X,
all the rest is Z1 or Z2. The 40 orange and the 180 green
Bm 21-70 000-219 were type Z2 (now rebuilt into Bpm 21-70).

Door and bogie type is not part of UIC-type definition.

BTW type Y was the shorter cars with 8 seats per compartment in
2nd class as SNCF and many Eastern European companies had them.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: SBB Class 450

Tim Hall <kalyr@...>
 

Bill Smith wrote:

What will then happen to the displaced SZU stock?
Is it being displaced, or are they increasing services and need more stock?


Re: Day on Gotthard - Monday 16 November

Chris Walters <eneme@...>
 

Please let me know if you would like more exact timings, locations and/or pictures. While I am still travelling I will be able to provide these in a week, and would be happy to do so given the assistance from this group with information, much appreciated.
Hi Andrew,

I for one would be very grateful for a detailed report. I'm hoping to return to Switzerland in 2007, and this time visit the Gottard...in 2005 I travelled on it, but was not able to photograph the line.

Regards,
Chris Walters

[moderated message, see
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SwissRail/message/7089 ]


Re: SBB Class 450

Bill Smith <MUNCHENSTEIN@...>
 

Sorry about the confusion what I meant was:
SBB for the repainting.
My thinking behind just sending the stock was for the SZU to use their own locos with each set as well as reforming their own double decker stock into a train. This would increase capacity without an increase their traction fleet.

[moderated message, see
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SwissRail/message/7089 ]


Re: SBB Class 450

Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@...>
 

Andrew Moglestue wrote:
SZU already has second-class centre coaches that are essentially
identical to the B coaches of these S-Bahn sets.
The SZU coaches are fully identical - apart from the livery.
As the MU-wiring of the DPZ is different from the Vst III system
of Re 456, a special cable has to be used to couple these
double deck soches with other SZU stock.

Even the toilet is there, but it is permanently closed, as
SZU offers neither toilets nor 1st class ...

Markus, G�rbetal


Day on Gotthard - Monday 16 November

Andrew Collier <Andrew.Collier@...>
 

Dear All,

As promised, some details of a day spent driving from Chiasso to Erstfeld and back on 16/11 between approx. 1030 and 1530. Highlights were:

* Green Ae6/6 on Nth bound short tanker train near Giornico in morning
* All SBB locos bar a couple in older red livery plus a Re6/6 in Green
* No Emus with all pass. Loco hauled, usually Re4/4, with 2 of these on the Cisalpino
* Single line worling just south of Wassen with works train parked at tunnel nr. U curve did not seem to lessen traffic with constant movement throughout day
* Crossrail train heading North at day's end.
*Several DB trains including light engine movements northward
* Lunch in the train behind Ae6/6 at Erstfeld

Please let me know if you would like more exact timings, locations and/or pictures. While I am still travelling I will be able to provide these in a week, and would be happy to do so given the assistance from this group with information, much appreciated.

Cheers, Andrew


Re: SBB Class 450

Andrew Moglestue
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "BILL" <william554733@...> wrote:

I have been reading LOK Reort for November and notice that it appears
that the sets are going to be given an overhaul. mention appears to be
made that 2 of these sets will also now work onthe SZU?
Yes, this is the case. The trains that will be transferred will be
complete sets and will be handed over in freshly overhauled condition.
I assume they will receive SZU livery. I don't know whether they are
being acquired by SZU or leased, or whether this entails any renumbering.

SZU already has second-class centre coaches that are essentially
identical to the B coaches of these S-Bahn sets.

Andrew


Re: SBB Class 450

Bill Smith <MUNCHENSTEIN@...>
 

What will then happen to the displaced SZU stock?

[moderated message, see
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/SwissRail/message/7089 ]


Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

Leonard Bulger <lbulger@...>
 

On Nov 13, 2006, at 9:33 AM, lbulger@comcast.net wrote:
gordonwis" <gordon373@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
Is there such a thing as an SBB 'TEE restaurant coach'?
I didn't think so
The TEE Bavaria was originally run with an RAm, but one of these
was destroyed in a horrendous accident at Aitrang in 1971. After
that, a locomotive hauled consist was used. The dining car was a
red SBB type X. At some point, it was painted in the TEE colors to
match the German coaches.

Leonard Bulger

[moderator's note: Your messages wouldn't be moderated if you would
be so kind and put the answer after the question, as it was now done
by your moderator. This would avoid delays. I can add, that the dining
cars were air conditioned and thus type Z, later called Z1 and not X.
Markus]
I apologize to the esteemed list manager about putting the answer
after question. The web application that I was using to read
my home email from work doesn't allow me to edit or move the quoted
reply at all. I spent about 10 minutes trying to do it and ran out
of lunch hour.

As for the WRm RIC used in the Bavaria, it was air conditioned, but
it was based on the UIC Type-X. These diners were put into service
in 1967. They were originally painted red, but later were painted
orange to match the Eurofima coaches. The Eurofima coaches aka type
UIC-Z went into service starting in 1977. The Bavaria became loco
hauled in 1971. The type SBB X coaches have Schlieren trucks and
folding doors while the Eurofimas have sliding doors and Fiat
trucks. To further complicate things, SBB had un-air conditioned
second class type X coaches painted in the orange Eurofima paint scheme.

Leonard Bulger


Re: SBB Class 450

Adrian Senn
 

Hi


I have been reading LOK Reort for November and notice that it appears that the sets are going to be given an overhaul. mention appears to be made that 2 of these sets will also now work onthe SZU?
If this is the case - is it only the coaches that are going? - or the complete sets ( in which case why?) -
As a know it will be the complete sets. It make no sense to give the train sets without the Re 450. The amount of sets is the same as the amount of Re 450.

and am I correct to assume that they will probably repaint the sets to match the new EMUs?
The repaint means a little bit another blue color, red doors and a blue
baggage door on the Re 450. Btw if on the Loco is a baggage compartment
it should be normaly RDe 450 :-)

Some pics

The old S-Bahn Train together with the new one.

http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20061015/20061015_171939.jpg.html
http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20061013/?g2_page=2

Re 450 with yellow baggage door and cars with red doors.
http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20060727/20060727_174139.jpg.html

And some other impressions
http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20060714/20060714_173014.jpg.html
http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20060714/20060714_173049.jpg.html
http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20060720/?g2_page=2
http://railimages.senn.ch/fotos/2006/20060805/20060805_200641.jpg.html


Regards Adrian


Re: SBB Class 450

Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@...>
 

BILL wrote:
I have been reading LOK Reort for November and notice that it appears
that the sets are going to be given an overhaul. mention appears to
be made that 2 of these sets will also now work onthe SZU?
Not now, but it is planned to sell two trains to SZU, later.

If this is the case - is it only the coaches that are going? - or the
complete sets ( in which case why?)
SZU doesn't have spare locomotives.

- and am I correct to assume that
they will probably repaint the sets to match the new EMUs?
"they"? who? SBB or SZU?
SBB changes door color from yellow to red, the rest remains.

Please bear in mind that my german is not perfect!
So is my English ... ;-)

Markus, G�rbetal


SBB Class 450

william554733
 

Hi:
I have been reading LOK Reort for November and notice that it appears
that the sets are going to be given an overhaul. mention appears to be
made that 2 of these sets will also now work onthe SZU?
If this is the case - is it only the coaches that are going? - or the
complete sets ( in which case why?) - and am I correct to assume that
they will probably repaint the sets to match the new EMUs?
Please bear in mind that my german is not perfect!


Re: SBB coaches in the 1960s

Andy Micklethwaite <jna74m@...>
 

At 22:47 13/11/2006, Markus wrote:
I remember riding in such a coach Uznach - Ziegelbrücke behind
an Ae 3/6 I, soon afterwards they went to the scrapyard.
Was there a connection between the 2 events? :-) :-)
ATB Andy.


Re: SBB coaches in the 1960s

Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@...>
 

Richard Bowen wrote:
In the Appenzeller Zeitung for 8th September 2006 and in conjunction
with the run-up to the referendum on the proposed changes to the
Ausl�ndergesetz appeared a picture of a Gastarbeiter train heading
off to Bari.

It is now in the YAHOO photo album 'R.A.Bowen' headed
'Gastarbeiter-zug'

Of interest are the coaches. I recall travelling in such vehicles
either on these trains or special trains organised by the CFF and
just once on what a think was another of them attached to the
Direct-Orient probably at Vallorbe and detached at Venizia (it was
the leading vehicle).

As I recall some - perhaps all - were equipped with dual heating
systems - steam and electric.

Perhaps some comments on the series and from when to till when they
were in regular use would be in order.
The two nearest coaches in the picture are of the series
50 85 28-13 006-023, withdrawn 1974-77
ca. 1968 ex 8077-8094
1962-64 ex A 2921-38
1956 ex B4� 2651-68
1947 ex B4� 3921-38, built 1931,
max speed 110 km/h, dual heating 1000 V 16. Hz and steam.

These were the first "upper class" inland (not RIC) steel coaches.
1936 B4� 3926-30 got R-brakes to be included in the then
starting "Leichtschnellz�ge" behind Ae 3/6 I-110, replaced one
year later by the new arriving light steel coaches. In 1962-64
the noble seats were taken out and standard 2nd class seats
installed. But the spacing remained and left much space for the
passenger's legs ...

I remember riding in such a coach Uznach - Ziegelbr�cke behind
an Ae 3/6 I, soon afterwards they went to the scrapyard.

Markus, G�rbetal


Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@...>
 

Tim Hall wrote:
gordonwis writes:
Is there such a thing as an SBB 'TEE restaurant coach'? I didn't
think so
Scroll down to the botton of the page (3rd from the bottom)
http://mgsharp.com/Kato_European_N.htm
I think this is a 1960s UIC coach. It's N rather than HO, and it
anybody's guess when (if ever) it will actually be available.
The original question was answered on SwissRailModeling. May I
remind members that modeling questions should be sent to that group.
Of course we are glad to help any modeler with prototype questions
in this group and so I may add on the subject:

WRm 61 85 88-70 000 of 1967 (UIC-Z1) got TEE livery in 1972 to be
used together with two DB coaches in the M�nchen - Z�rich Bavaria
after the RAm 501 had derailed at Aitrang. In the same year and for
the same train (only Z�rich - Lindau of course) the two Re 4/4 I 10033
and 10034 also got TEE-livery and one �BB pantograph.

Markus, G�rbetal


SBB coaches in the 1960s

Richard Bowen
 

In the Appenzeller Zeitung for 8th September 2006 and in conjunction with the run-up to the referendum on the proposed changes to the Ausländergesetz appeared a picture of a Gastarbeiter train heading off to Bari.

It is now in the YAHOO photo album 'R.A.Bowen' headed 'Gastarbeiter-zug'

Of interest are the coaches. I recall travelling in such vehicles either on these trains or special trains organised by the CFF and just once on what a think was another of them attached to the Direct-Orient probably at Vallorbe and detached at Venizia (it was the leading vehicle).

As I recall some - perhaps all - were equipped with dual heating systems - steam and electric.

Perhaps some comments on the series and from when to till when they were in regular use would be in order.

Richard A. Bowen


Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

lbulger@...
 

gordonwis" <gordon373@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
Is there such a thing as an SBB 'TEE restaurant coach'?
I didn't think so
The TEE Bavaria was originally run with an RAm, but one of these was destroyed in a horrendous accident at Aitrang in 1971. After that, a locomotive hauled consist was used. The dining car was a red SBB type X. At some point, it was painted in the TEE colors to match the German coaches.

Leonard Bulger

[moderator's note: Your messages wouldn't be moderated if you would
be so kind and put the answer after the question, as it was now done
by your moderator. This would avoid delays. I can add, that the dining
cars were air conditioned and thus type Z, later called Z1 and not X.
Markus]


Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

Bill Bolton
 

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:35:36 -0000, gordon373@lycos.co.uk wrote:

Is there such a thing as an SBB 'TEE restaurant coach'? I didn't think
so
Think again then....

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/car/restaurant/CFF_WR-RIC-TEE_1.jpg

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

Bill Bolton
 

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 08:48:00 -0000, you wrote:

Can anyone advise if an HO model of this coach has been or is
available? If so who made it?
If I recall correctly, Lilliput did one in the 1970s.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Re: SBB TEE restaurant coach

tudor erich
 

--- gordonwis <gordon373@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
Is there such a thing as an SBB 'TEE restaurant
coach'? I didn't think so
Dear Gordon,

WRm 51.85.88.70.000 original number later
61.85.88.70.000.

My understanding is that it was built as a replacement
for a NS/CFF diesel TEE restaurant car damaged in an
accident on 9/2/1971.

Bernard

[moderator's note: Your messages wouldn't be moderated if you
would be so kind and put the answer after the question, as it
was now done by your moderator. This would avoid delays. I can
add, that the dining car 88-70 000 was delivered in 1967, painted
red. 1972 it got a new livery for the Bavaria. Markus]