OT, 16-2/3 Hz for Railway and Industrial use.


bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?

bob gillis


Malcolm Hardy-Randall <gotthard@...>
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, bob gillis <robertgillis@...> wrote:

Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial
frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?

bob gillis
I have a feeling that it was 1949 set by the American Bureau of
standards. I think the best place to look would be the Institute of
Electrical Engineering or the Bureau of Standards. I will look
through my old Uni notes to see if I can find anything.

Malcolm


Guerbetaler
 

bob gillis wrote:
Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial
frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?
First: The "industrial" standard is 50 cycles per second, not 1000
Second: This standard already existed when railway electrification began.
Third: The 16 2/3 cycles per second standard was chosen to have
an exact 1:3 relation
Fourth: America and part of Japan felt, it was cool to choose
a different standard, which is 60 cycles per second ;-)
Fifth: Since 16 October 1995, 12:00, the nominal frequency in
Germany, Austria and Switzerland is 16.7 cycles per second.

HTH :-)

Markus, G�rbetal


bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

Malcolm Hardy-Randall wrote:
--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
wrote:
Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?
bob gillis
I have a feeling that it was 1949 set by the American Bureau of standards. I think the best place to look would be the Institute of Electrical Engineering or the Bureau of Standards. I will look through my old Uni notes to see if I can find anything.
Sorry for the error in the body. 16-2/3 Hz is 1000 cycles per minute.
and it is a European standard not a US.

bob gillis


Malcolm
------------------------------------


Guerbetaler
 

bob gillis wrote:
Sorry for the error in the body. 16-2/3 Hz is 1000 cycles per minute.
This is a very unfamiliar counting. Sure, it is exactly 1000 per minute,
but I never claculated that! It is 16 2/3 for us, just that!

Markus, G�rbetal


Malcolm Hardy-Randall <gotthard@...>
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "Guerbetaler" <guerbetaler@...> wrote:

bob gillis wrote:
Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial
frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?
Sorry I went off at a tangent talking about power control timing
frequencies.

The 16.6Hz frequency of the traction power supply was chosen by Dr
Hans Behn - Eschenburg,of M.F.O.,when he was experimenting with high
voltage traction motors, instead of the usual low voltage DC supplies,
after trials of several power levels. The
motors were to be used in locomotives being built by M.F.O.in 1903 for
trials on the Seebach - Wettingen line. The trials were successful
and in 1907 the "Swiss Commission for the study of Electric Traction"
stated that the level of 15kV 16.6Hz should be used as the standard
for the Gotthard and later all Swiss lines. In 1911 the SBB signed
the credit agreement and in 1913 work began on the design of the
equipment required.

When Germany and Austria chose to follow the same traction power
generating path I do not know. Siemens-Schuckert Co of Berlin was
involved with the trials on the Seebach line and like MFO were pleased
with the results.

Malcolm


Guerbetaler
 

Malcolm Hardy-Randall wrote:
... The trials were successful
and in 1907 the "Swiss Commission for the study of Electric Traction"
stated that the level of 15kV 16.6Hz should be used as the standard
for the Gotthard and later all Swiss lines. In 1911 the SBB signed
the credit agreement and in 1913 work began on the design of the
equipment required.
At that time, BLS was opening with 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz and Spiez -
Frutigen had already worked like that since 1910. Also in 1913
RhB openend the Engadin line with electric traction at 11 kV 16 2/3 Hz.

Preussen started with 10 kV in 1911 and switched to 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz
in 1913 (Dessau - Bitterfeld).

Rjukanbanen in Norway electrified at 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz in 1911.

MIDI (France) electrified at 12 kV 16 2/3 Hz in 1912 but soon had
to switch to 1500 V dc (except Perpignan - Villefranche, that
remained until 1971).

1912 Innsbruck (BB�) - Garmisch (Bay St B) was electrified
at 15 kV 15 Hz but later changed to 16 2/3 Hz.

1913 Basel Bad. Bf. - Schopfheim (Baden) started with 10 kV 15 Hz
but also later changed to 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz.

etc.

SJ followed 1915, SBB 1920, NSB 1922.

Markus, G�rbetal


bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

Guerbetaler wrote:
bob gillis wrote:
Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?
As I mentioned in another message it should be 1000 cycles per minute
First: The "industrial" standard is 50 cycles per second, not 1000
In Europe and in North America there are two frequency standards. The
Commercial or Household frequency: 50Hz in European and where European
standards prevail and 60Hz in the USA and where US standards prevail.

There are two Industrial frequencies, 16-2/3 Hz or 1000 Cycles per
minute in Europe and 25 Hz in the US. As commutator motors run better
as the frequency approaches and becomes 0, DC, a lower industrial
frequency was adopted.

These Industrial frequencies cause visible flicker in incandescent
lighting where as with the Commercial frequencies the flicker is not
noticeable. i remember back in the 1950s visiting the New York Central
Station in Buffalo NY and the flicker of the lights was quite evident.
The Station received is electricity from an old hydraulic power
station at at Niagara Falls, NY.

As electrical technology has developed the commutator motors have been
replaced by induction motors other drives and the rotating speeds of
motors used by machinery have increased to that of commercial
frequencies.

So the use of the Industrial frequencies are mostly on the railroads.
In the USA all recent AC electrifications, since WW2, have been at the
commercial frequency, 60 Hz


Second: This standard already existed when railway electrification began. Third: The 16 2/3 cycles per second standard was chosen to have an exact 1:3 relation
Yes I agree that is the case but I am trying to find a paper or
description of the conferences that established those standards. Many
yeas ago I saw something on it.

F>Fourth: America and part of Japan felt, it
was cool to choose a different standard, which is 60 cycles per second ;-)
The pioneers in AC electricity in the US decided to use the 60 Hz while
the European settled on 50 Hz or 3000 cycles per minute and 16-2/3 Hz or
1000 cycles per minute. I am sure the metric system was a big influence.
The electrical companies that were built by US interests in Japan and
other countries adopted the 60 HZ standard; the companies built by European
interests in Japan and other countries adopted 50 Hz.

Fifth: Since 16 October 1995, 12:00, the nominal frequency in Germany, Austria and Switzerland is 16.7 cycles per second.
Which is 1002 cycles per minute; and well within the range of the generator governors

bob gillis


Bill Bolton
 

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:11:41 +0200, Markus wrote:

Fourth: America and part of Japan felt, it was cool to choose
a different standard, which is 60 cycles per second ;-)
The US and Canada had pretty much settled on 25 Hz and 60 Hz as
defacto "standards", based on Telsa's original work on AC power
reticulation systems, before Siemens decided that 50 Hz should be the
de facto European "standard".

The issue with AC power in its early technology stages was that the
frequencies that were best for electro-motive purposes (factories and
railways etc) were generally poor for general electro-illumination
purposes, and vice versa.

Tesla determined through some practical experiments that 60 Hz was
minimum AC frequency that is suitable for general incandescent lamp
illumination applications, without getting noticeable "flickering".
Siemens later determined that 50Hz produced acceptable results with
the incandescent lamps they were able to manufacture in Europe.

The most popular US rail electrification frequency of 25 Hz was an
attempt to trade off electro-motive and electro-illumination needs but
was never really satisfactory for either purpose.... though it was not
until the second half of the 20th century that 60 Hz frequency
displaced 25 Hz for domestic power reticulation in the some regions of
North Eastern parts of North America, and not until circa 2005/6 that
25 Hz power generation in North America finally ceased altogether.

Frequencies around 15Hz were found to be good for rail electrification
purposes given the early AC motors. 15 Hz was used in a few places in
the US and 16.66 Hz over wide areas of Europe. The 15 Hz US
installations never went on to gain critical mass.... the Southern
Pacific railroad did at one stage give serious though to adopting it
for mainline electrification purposes and did electrify a branch line
(interurban) using 15 Hz power as an experiment with 15 Hz power,
which managed to hang on to circa 1943.

Cheers,

Bill (IEEE)

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia


Guerbetaler
 

Bill Bolton wrote:
The most popular US rail electrification frequency of 25 Hz ...
25 Hz was a quite frequent choice for European elctrifications
in the early years:

1903 KPEV Berlin (trial)
1905 SJ Tmoteboda (Sweden, trial)
1907 LPB Locarno 26 Hz !!
1907 KPEV Hamburg S-Bahn (Germany)
1908 LMR Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham (GB)
1908 ZHESM Den Haag - Scheveningen/- Rotterdam (NL)
1908 Thamshavnbanen (Norway)
1910 Seetalbahn
1910 Albtalbahn (Germany)
1911 Mariazellerbahn (Austria)
... just to name a few. Also many French narrow gauge
railways and some Italin private railways were electrified at 25 Hz.
Today the Mariazellerbahn is the only remaining 25 Hz operation
in Europe with regular service.

BTW Two of the Seetalbahn motor coaches had been sold to
Italy when SBB changed it to 16 2/3 Hz in 1930!

Markus, G�rbetal


Guerbetaler
 

bob gillis wrote:
Yes I agree that is the case but I am trying to find a paper or
description of the conferences that established those standards.
Many yeas ago I saw something on it.
1912 Preussen, Baden and Bayern signed a contract named
"�bereinkommen betreffend die Ausf�hrung elektrischer Zugf�rderung"
where the standard of 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz was fixed.

I have conflicting infos about the BLS. But a document from May 1911
reprinted in Jeanmaire's Archiv Nr. 59, Spiez - Frutigen - Bahn,
clearly speaks about 15 cycles.

Markus, G�rbetal


Guerbetaler
 

bob gillis wrote:

In Europe and in North America there are two frequency standards. The
Commercial or Household frequency: 50Hz in European and where
European standards prevail and 60Hz in the USA and where US
standards prevail.

There are two Industrial frequencies, 16-2/3 Hz or 1000 Cycles per
minute in Europe and 25 Hz in the US.
I can now understand, why we had some misunderstandings at the
start of this thread:

We call 50 Hz the industrial frequency (Industriefrequenz) while
16 2/3 Hz, 16.7 Hz and 25 Hz are referred to as railway frequencies
(Bahnfrequenz) or as reduced frequencies.

In a historical survey about Swiss railway electrification in the
"centennial books" (Ein Jahrhundert Schweizer Bahnen 1847-1947),
Vol. I of 1947, Prof. Dr. Karl Sachs writes:
- on 20 June 1908 BLS decided to electrify Spiez - Frutigen at
15 kV 15 Hz
- on 18 May 1910 RhB decided to electrify at 11 kV 16 2/3 Hz,
consultant was Prof. Dr. Blattner

In a footnote Sachs writes that Zehnder and Amman (two BLS
men) together with Prof. Dr. Blattner in 1906 proposed
12 kV 16 2/3 Hz for the electrification of BLS.

I can't find an indication as to when BLS changed from 15
to 16 2/3 Hz.

Markus, G�rbetal


young_pete2000
 

Another reason 16-2/3Hz was chosen is that it was possible to generate
both industrial frequency (50Hz) and railway frequency using the same
prime mover and connecting two seperate generators to it. It also
allowed for power to be transferred between industrial frequency and
railway frequencies if one had an excess of power (probably
regeneration from teh railway). Incidentally is there anywhare still
with this arrangement in Switzerland or elsewhere.

Young Pete


Kidger Paul
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, bob gillis <robertgillis@...> wrote:

Can anyone give me a url that tells how and when the industrial
frequency standard of 1000 cycles per second was established?

bob gillis
If I may be permitted to add my 2 euro cents worth and apologies if
this has been mentionned somewhere else, I have always viewed the
choice of low frequency AC as coming from a combination of two
factors.
Firstly there is the advantages of high voltage AC to minimise
transmission losses and the ability to convert to a suitable motor
voltage by a transformer. I assume that motor volts are something in
the order of 1000 Volts in order to keep the insulation of reasonable
thickness.

Secondly there is the aspectof control. AC motors (at the time)
tended to be fixed speed machines, which when constructed with
multiple poles would operate at 2 or 3 fixed speeds . Good control
can be had from using the commutator motor with resistor banks. These
are more commonly associated with DC but will operate on AC, as in
several domestic appliances. However with large commutator motors,
arcing becomes a problem at 50 Hz or 60 Hz. This arcing is reduced at
lower frequencies, hence to choice of 25 Hz and 16.66 Hz. Others have
explained the reason for 16.66 Hz as 1/3 of standard 50 Hz.

I would imagine that with the advent of electronic controls, where
effectively the current is dissassembled then reassembled into the
frequency and waveform needed to give control of the much simpler AC
traction motors, it won't be too long before some of the low
frequency AC systems are converted to standard frequency, in order to
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs. On
the 'down side'this will mean the end of running 'heritage' stock not
having electronic controls.

Paul Kidger


bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

I sen Paul Kidger a rather long reply to his mesage which started with:

If I may be permitted to add my 2 euro cents worth and apologies if this has been mentionned somewhere else, I have always viewed the choice of low frequency AC as coming from a combination of two factors.
If anyone else would like to see the reply I can post to the group if Markus concurs.

Some SwissRail content in my reply.

bob gillis


Guerbetaler
 

bob gillis wrote:
If anyone else would like to see the reply I can post to the group if
Markus concurs.
Please post it, I am interested as well.

Markus, G�rbetal


Guerbetaler
 

Paul kidger wrote:
I would imagine that with the advent of electronic controls, where
effectively the current is dissassembled then reassembled into the
frequency and waveform needed to give control of the much simpler AC
traction motors, it won't be too long before some of the low
frequency AC systems are converted to standard frequency, in order to
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs.
This has been discussed recently and the answer was a simple NO.
It is too expensive, doesn't produce real advantages but destroys
all advantages that exist. Just a few facts:
- 16.7 Hz grid is single phase, 50 Hz is three phase
- separate high-voltage grid means independence
- 16.7 Hz has other influences than 50 Hz
- The last locomotives with 16.7 Hz motors were delivered
in 1985. Their economic life ends around 2035.
- for some new TGV lines SNCF built a separate high-voltage
grill in 50 Hz!

Just a few hints ...

Markus, G�rbetal


Kidger Paul
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "Markus" <guerbetaler@...> wrote:
reduce distribution and substation equipment renewal costs.
This has been discussed recently and the answer was a simple NO.
It is too expensive, doesn't produce real advantages but destroys
all advantages that exist. Just a few facts:
- 16.7 Hz grid is single phase, 50 Hz is three phase
- separate high-voltage grid means independence
- 16.7 Hz has other influences than 50 Hz
- The last locomotives with 16.7 Hz motors were delivered
in 1985. Their economic life ends around 2035.
- for some new TGV lines SNCF built a separate high-voltage
grill in 50 Hz!

Just a few hints ...

Markus, Gürbetal

Markus
My comments regarding conversion of the 16.7 Hz systems to 50 hz, was
meant to be speculative rather than a definitive statement of what
will happen. I really didn't propose the SBB change to 50 Hz in one
massive disruptive project.

However,surely when the supply system for a line become life expired
and due for renewal (not necessarily restricted to Switzerland), one
of the factors to be considered in the project evaluation must be a
possible conversion to 50 Hz, especially if all of the stock has 50
Hz capability. It is the one rare opportunity to make the change. Yes
there are advantages and disadvantages and it is the art of the
project team to make the right long-term decission based on a
judgement of all of the facts.This is possibly summed up as 'Costs vs
Benefits'. An example is the NS where the decission was made to start
a rolling programme of 25 kV 50 Hz to replace the 1500 V DC because
of supply problems associated with high current 1500 V systems.

As I stated, with the ability of electronics to disassemble and
reassemble current into virtually any form you want, the form of the
supply current becomes much less important than in the past. It has
effectively broken the tie between supply current to match the needs
of the motors and controls which has up until recently dictated the
type of supply current. Therefore the supply system can be designed
more in isolation with minimising capital costs and running costs,
including losses.I think that the 50 kV supply system now in use on
the SNCF and parts of the UK shows this.

I must admit that I didn't realise that the 16.7 Hz system forms a
separate grid system in Switzerland. This also must represent an
additional operating cost, which may or may not be justified in the
interests of maintaining a supply independent from the national grid.
I wonder what the situation is in other 16.7 Hz countries.

No doubt this debate will continue.

Paul Kidger


Manfred Luckmann
 

Am 11.09.2008 09:06, Paul kidger schrieb:
However,surely when the supply system for a line become life expired
and due for renewal (not necessarily restricted to Switzerland), one
of the factors to be considered in the project evaluation must be a
possible conversion to 50 Hz, especially if all of the stock has 50
Hz capability. It is the one rare opportunity to make the change. Yes
there are advantages and disadvantages and it is the art of the
project team to make the right long-term decission based on a
judgement of all of the facts.This is possibly summed up as 'Costs vs
Benefits'. An example is the NS where the decission was made to start
a rolling programme of 25 kV 50 Hz to replace the 1500 V DC because
of supply problems associated with high current 1500 V systems.
One major disadvantage is the fact that 40 Hz systems are 3-phase.
alls 3 phases of the system should carry a similar load, so you have
to have lots of breaks (i.e. powerless sections) to separate the phases.
The european railways 16,7 HZ net is single phase an runs syncronous
(at least in D, A, CH - the scandinavian 16,7 Hz net has no direct
connection to the central eurpean net) and needs no breaks.

I must admit that I didn't realise that the 16.7 Hz system forms a
separate grid system in Switzerland. This also must represent an
additional operating cost, which may or may not be justified in the
interests of maintaining a supply independent from the national grid.
I wonder what the situation is in other 16.7 Hz countries.
The same holds for Germany and Austria


Manfred


Bill Bolton
 

On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:15:56 +0200, Markus wrote:

Just a few facts:
- 16.7 Hz grid is single phase, 50 Hz is three phase
The number of phases has nothing to do with frequency per se.

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia