Electrification of CH rail; was there an CH invention that ma...


JSScherrer@...
 

Can you point me to any Swiss invented component or idea which helped move
electrification of railways ahead.

Regards,


Jim Scherrer, CEO
Scherrer Resources, Inc.

120 Arrandale Boulevard
Technology Center
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
JScherrer@WebAlly.com


Kidger Paul
 

There were some links with the UK. The firm of Hawthorn & Leslie built several designs, in the 1920's and 30's and probably under Swiss license, large electric locos with Buchli drive for export to India and Japan. Sadly because the UK was firmly wedded to coal and steam, this did not result in any UK developments until later.   The BR, around 1955, built for the Southern 750V third rail system, the class 71 locos with much, if not all of their bogie design taken from contemporary Swiss designs (again probably under license) and proved to be a great success until withdrawn due to changing traffic needs. 

I always find the Buchli drive fascinating and ingenious. There was a working model in the London Science Museum (It may be in York now) and I think that there is a larger model (or even an actual drive unit ) in th Luzern transport museum. It is wonderful to see the unit in operation as it allows for track undulations yet maintains stable conditions for the motor.

Paul Kidger

________________________________
From: "JSScherrer@aol.com" <JSScherrer@aol.com>
To: SwissRail@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 21 February 2012, 22:01
Subject: Re: [SwissRail] Electrification of CH rail; was there an CH invention that ma...


 
Can you point me to any Swiss invented component or idea which helped move
electrification of railways ahead.

Regards,

Jim Scherrer, CEO
Scherrer Resources, Inc.

120 Arrandale Boulevard
Technology Center
Exton, PA 19341
484-875-1700
JScherrer@WebAlly.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


csipromo
 

I would think that the technical innovations of Brown Boveri (BBC) today ABB and now part of Bombardier through the acquisition of ADTranz from ABB and Daimler-Benz have contributed to the growth of electric rail traffic around the world.

There were certainly other companies that were involved in the manufacture of rail equipment, but BBC was definitely a world leader in development.

Regards

Mike C


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 22.02.2012 18:32, schrieb csipromo:
I would think that the technical innovations of Brown Boveri (BBC)
today ABB and now part of Bombardier through the acquisition of
ADTranz from ABB and Daimler-Benz have contributed to the growth of
electric rail traffic around the world.
Well, part of BBC had different origins. There were four companies in Switzerland, active in this field: BBC of Baden, Alioth of M�nchenstein, MFO Maschinenfabrik Oerlikon of Z�rich and SAAS SA des Ateliers de S�cheron of Gen�ve. They were eventually merged into BBC. MFO was leader in single phase electrification while BBC's sepcial program was three phase electrifications. If I'm not mistaken it was MFO which built the first ac single phase locomotive motor of the world. The first locomotive of Seebach - Wettingen originally had dc motors. The Re 6/6 was the last design based on ac single phase motors.

BBC was merged with ASEA of Sweden to ABB and still exists. Stadler trains come with ABB components.

The motive power division of ABB was merged with AEG to ADtranz and then sold to Bombardier. The electro locomotive development department of Bombardier is still in Oerlikon.

Markus, G�rbetal


John Lovda
 

Are motors in a locomotive such as the 460 considered AC or DC. They seem to take the line voltage and convert it to a continually varying computer generated waveform.


Andrew Moglestue
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, JSScherrer@... wrote:

Can you point me to any Swiss invented component or idea which helped move
electrification of railways ahead.

Regards,
The origins of electric railways are German of course, with Werner von Siemens' ground-breaking work. These early electrifications were all DC. Later the Americans took the lead and developed DC electrification further. Look at people like Sprague. Switzerland took the lead in single-phase AC electrification however.

- The world's first succesful single-phase electrification was the Seebach - Wettingen line.

- The quill drive was invented by Brown Boveri.

- Brown Boveri also did ground-breaking work on commutation in motors, permitting speeds and frequencies to be raised. Look for "Wendepolmotor"

- Also mechnaically, especially SLM invented a lot of stuff that improved the dynamic properties of locomotives while reducing wear on rail and wheel, such as radially adjustable axles etc and the Büchli drive.

I'm sure there must be a lot more besides but can't think of it right now.

Andrew


Andrew Moglestue
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, Guerbetaler <muesche2-swissrail@...> wrote:

The motive power division of ABB was merged with AEG to ADtranz and then
sold to Bombardier. The electro locomotive development department of
Bombardier is still in Oerlikon.

Markus, Gürbetal
Yes, and although ABB sold a lot of stuff to Adtranz and Bomabadrier, they also kept a lot of stuff ans so remained a sub-supplier. ABB has been growing this business again in recent years and virtually all of it is based in Switzerland. ABB Sécheron in Geneva make transformers for both Stadler and Bombardier (and even for Siemens sometimes, the new Siemens Velaro high-speed train for DB has Swiss transformers). Then in Turgi ABB makes traction converter packages, with Stadler being the main customer. ABB also makes traction motors for both Bombardier and Stadler. Right now they're developing a new transformer that is much lighter and smalelr than anything that's been seen before.

Andrew


Kidger Paul
 

I believe that the first truly passenger carrying railway was the Volks railway along the seafront in Brighton (UK). It is about 750mm gauge an originally had the current via the running rails as per model railway. Later it was converted to 110V third rail, It is still running. Magnus Volk (not exactly a traditional english name) had, I think, some German ancestry.

Paul Kidger

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "A Moglestue" <amogles@...> wrote:



--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, JSScherrer@ wrote:

Can you point me to any Swiss invented component or idea which helped move
electrification of railways ahead.

Regards,
The origins of electric railways are German of course, with Werner von Siemens' ground-breaking work. These early electrifications were all DC. Later the Americans took the lead and developed DC electrification further. Look at people like Sprague. Switzerland took the lead in single-phase AC electrification however.

- The world's first succesful single-phase electrification was the Seebach - Wettingen line.

- The quill drive was invented by Brown Boveri.

- Brown Boveri also did ground-breaking work on commutation in motors, permitting speeds and frequencies to be raised. Look for "Wendepolmotor"

- Also mechnaically, especially SLM invented a lot of stuff that improved the dynamic properties of locomotives while reducing wear on rail and wheel, such as radially adjustable axles etc and the Büchli drive.

I'm sure there must be a lot more besides but can't think of it right now.

Andrew


Andrew Moglestue
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulkidger@...> wrote:

I believe that the first truly passenger carrying railway was the Volks railway along the seafront in Brighton (UK). It is about 750mm gauge an originally had the current via the running rails as per model railway. Later it was converted to 110V third rail, It is still running. Magnus Volk (not exactly a traditional english name) had, I think, some German ancestry.

Paul Kidger

Wasn't the Berlin Lichterfelde tramway a bit earlier?


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 1:40 PM, A Moglestue <amogles@yahoo.com> wrote:
. Right now they're developing a new transformer that is much lighter and smalelr than anything that's been seen before.
Any information on that? I've been eagerly waiting for someone to come
up with a "Switch Mode Power Supply" style design for railways. the
idea is to use a transformer at a much higher frequency than that of
the supply, so it can be a lot lighter. It's basically how modern
power supplies work. Ever noticed how light your mobile phone charger
has become :-)

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
--
A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?


Andrew Moglestue
 

Yes, that's more or less what it does.
 
You can read more here for example:
(scroll to the bottom of the page for the relevant bit)
 
http://www.lokifahrer.ch/Lokomotiven/Loks-SBB/Ee_3-3-IV/umbauten.htm
 
I understand there will be an official press event soon where a fuller expalnation wil be offered

From: Krist van Besien <krist.vanbesien@gmail.com>
To: SwissRail@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012, 14:36
Subject: Re: [SwissRail] Re: Electrification of CH rail; was there an CH invention that ma...


Any information on that? I've been eagerly waiting for someone to come
up with a "Switch Mode Power Supply" style design for railways. the
idea is to use a transformer at a much higher frequency than that of
the supply, so it can be a lot lighter. It's basically how modern
power supplies work. Ever noticed how light your mobile phone charger
has become :-)

Krist


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


bob gillis <robertgillis@...>
 

On 2/23/2012 7:53 AM, Paul wrote:
I believe that the first truly passenger carrying railway was the
Volks railway along the seafront in Brighton (UK). It is about 750mm
gauge an originally had the current via the running rails as per
model railway. Later it was converted to 110V third rail, It is still
running. Magnus Volk (not exactly a traditional english name) had, I
think, some German ancestry.
I assume you mean electrified railway.

bob gillis


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 23.02.2012 03:18, schrieb jlovda:
Are motors in a locomotive such as the 460 considered AC or DC. They
seem to take the line voltage and convert it to a continually varying
computer generated waveform.
Re 450 and higher all have ac three phase motors. So, their electronics make a ac1 - dc - ac3 transformation with the resulting ac3 being of variable frequency.

Re 440/446, NPZ and RhB Ge 4/4 II work on dc motors, with thyristors to feed them.

BLS Re 425 has dc motors with simple rectifiers.

Markus, G�rbetal


Guerbetaler
 

Am 23.02.2012 13:57, schrieb A Moglestue:
I believe that the first truly passenger carrying railway was the
Volks railway along the seafront in Brighton (UK). It is about
750mm gauge an originally had the current via the running rails as
per model railway. Later it was converted to 110V third rail, It is
still running.
Wasn't the Berlin Lichterfelde tramway a bit earlier?
I believe ... it's time for facts. ;-)

Volk's railway opened in 1884, has a gauge of 825 mm and works on middle electric rail (460 V dc) since 1886. In 1883 a trial scheme had been built with 610 mm gauge.

In Berlin a meter gauge tramway with 150 V dc from the rails opened in 1881. Six years later it was converted to overhead current supply.

The Vevey - Montreux - Chillon tramway opened in 1888, was continued to Villeneuve in 1903, converted to trolleybus in 1958 and is still an electric operation.

It was followed in 1891 by the Sissach - Gelterkinden light railway, also meter gauge, 550 V dc, that closed in 1916 when the new SBB line through Hauenstein base tunnel opened.

Third electric operation of Switzerland started in the same year, connecting Gr�tschalp funicular station with M�rren. This is now the oldest still operating electric railway in Switzerland. Also meter gauge, it has ever worked at (nominal) 550 V dc.

Markus, G�rbetal


Kidger Paul
 

Volk's railway opened in 1884, has a gauge of 825 mm and works on middle
electric rail (460 V dc) since 1886. In 1883 a trial scheme had been
Markus

The Volks web pages give the opening at as 1883. I will agree that the revised gauge is 2' 8 1/2" which is 825 mm. However the current is only 110V DC supplied through an off centre 3rd rail.

Paul Kidger


Kidger Paul
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, Guerbetaler <muesche2-swissrail@...> wrote:

Re 450 and higher all have ac three phase motors. So, their electronics
make a ac1 - dc - ac3 transformation with the resulting ac3 being of
variable frequency.
Markus

I often think that this process of disassembling then reassmbling an electrical supply means that the incentive to change from 15 kV 16.Hz to 25kV 50Hz, is greatly reduced. I would imagine that the overall efficiency is high, especially if it incorporates regenerative braking.

Paul Kidger

Re 440/446, NPZ and RhB Ge 4/4 II work on dc motors, with thyristors to
feed them.

BLS Re 425 has dc motors with simple rectifiers.

Markus, Gürbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 23.02.2012 20:08, schrieb Paul:
Volk's railway opened in 1884, has a gauge of 825 mm and works on
middle electric rail (460 V dc) since 1886. In 1883 a trial scheme
had been
Markus

The Volks web pages give the opening at as 1883.
As I said, 1883 was a trial scheme. But it wasn' the railway as it is
now. From the official website:
<http://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/index.cfm?request=c1193996>

"This short demonstration line was very different to today's operation,
being 2' gauge and only � mile long. The car was powered by a 50v dc
supply which was taken from a gas engine and dynamo located in the Royal
Humane Society's Arch under the promenade."

And, by the way, <http://www.volkselectricrailway.co.uk/> says:

"This website has no connection with either Brighton & Hove City Council
or the management of Volk�s Electric Railway."

I will agree that the revised gauge is 2' 8 1/2" which is 825 mm.
However the current is only 110V DC supplied through an off centre
3rd rail.

The two above mentioned websites indicate 160 V, my figure came from a book by Brian Hollingsworth and Arthur Cook. Maybe 160 was mistyped as 460.

J.C. Gillham, The Age of the Electric Train, also gives 160 V.

Markus, G�rbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 23.02.2012 20:50, schrieb Paul:
I often think that this process of disassembling then reassmbling an
electrical supply means that the incentive to change from 15 kV 16.Hz
to 25kV 50Hz, is greatly reduced. I would imagine that the overall
efficiency is high, especially if it incorporates regenerative
braking.
There is no thought waisted for such a change. For three reasons

1) Changing to 50 Hz would mean to stop all ac1-motor vehicles as Re 420 and 620 and means to change the transformer of all other motive power, except those already fitted for 25 kV 50 Hz (Re 482 etc.)

2) There are several advantages of a single phase 16.7 Hz supply against the 50 Hz supplies in other countries

3) Power stations, power lines, transformers and frequency converters exist and grant an independent power supply. When the 50 Hz supply is down, trams stand still but the railways go. When the 16.7 Hz supply is down, the railway comes to a halt but the rest is going on.

Really no reason to change.

Markus, G�rbetal


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Paul <paulkidger@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

I often think that this process of disassembling then reassmbling an electrical supply means that the incentive to change from 15 kV 16.Hz to 25kV 50Hz, is greatly reduced. I would imagine that the overall efficiency is high, especially if it incorporates regenerative braking.
Indeed. A case in point here are consumer electronics. Japan uses 100V
at 50 or 60Hz, the US 110V 60Hz and Europe 230V 50Hz. As a result
appliance manufacturers have become very good at producing power
supplies that can take about any form of electrons in motion. These
power supplies us a switching design, where the imput is first
converted (using a fast electronic "switch") to a higher frequency
which is then fed in a transformer. The higher the frequency, the
lighter the transformer can be. As faster electronic switches have
become available power supplies have become lighter. A feedback loop
adjusts the duty cycle of the switch so that the output is always the
same, regardless of what goes in.

If you can scale that up to the power requirements typical in rail
traction building a vehicle that doesn't care what is on the overhead
line becomes trivial. I've now read that at least ABB and Siemens are
both working on solutions based on that concept, and I expect to see
it applied soon in light rail vehicles that need to operate under AC.

So converting the existing 15V 16.6Hz AC systems to 25Kv 50Hz will not
happen. I do expect more DC routes to be converted to AC however, as
that does offer quite a few advantages.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
--
A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?


Kidger Paul
 


So converting the existing 15V 16.6Hz AC systems to 25Kv 50Hz will not
happen. I do expect more DC routes to be converted to AC however, as
that does offer quite a few advantages.

Krist
I agree. It is all to do with current and losses (I^2*R)and the amount of copper needed to carry the huge currents and the number of feeder stations. Amsterdam station is a good example, where the overhead conductors are doubled, to give adequate current capacity for starting. Hence the reason for NS to pursue 25kV 50Hz. DC however has had (in the past) the distinct advantage on lighter duties because of the smaller control gear size.

Paul Kidger