Another loco hauled service to end


Martin Baumann
 

It is now confirmed that the Basel to Zürich Flughafen direct trains will go over to 511 units with next month's timetable change


Chris Wood
 

Martin Baumann wrote:


> It is now confirmed that the Basel to Zürich Flughafen direct trains will go
> over to 511 units with next month's timetable change

I thought they were currently operated with FLIRTs (522 units). When did they switch to loco haulage?.


Simon
 

They've been booked 460s for ages.
 
They do use Flirts if they are really short but Re4/4 and a scratch rake is more usual if the booked traction is not available.
 
Although looking at the current diagrams there are only two sets booked when they need three trains to cover the circuit?
 
Whatever, it's another nail in the coffin of the Re4/4 diagrams as the 460s will just cascade onto existing Re4/4 work.
 
Also of note - this is the first of the "New" units to be diagrammed to work long distance services into Basel; previously a stronghold of traditional loco and stock.
 
Bah - Modern railways are rubbish.


bs177@...
 

---In SwissRail@..., wrote:
> I thought they were currently operated with FLIRTs (522 units). When did they switch to loco haulage?.
 
I am not sure that they have ever been units, whenever I am in the area, I try and make a point of catching them because they give a good view over the yards to the South of Altstetten.  Shame to lose another loco-hauled but that's progress!
 
Bruce


gordonwis
 

On Tue, 5/11/13, bs177@ggbooks.
> I am not sure that they have ever been units,

conversely, whenever I have ended up travelling on one it has been ICN!


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 05.11.2013 16:41, schrieb Simon Cuddeford (CH):
Bah - Modern railways are rubbish.
You seem to live in the wrong century. Poor man ;-)

Markus


Simon
 


Bah - Modern railways are rubbish.
You seem to live in the wrong century. Poor man ;-)

Markus
I guess you're right. How naive of me to want my railways run by Engineers and not accountants. How silly of me to want words like faster, passenger, more beautiful and louder in my railway vocabulary when I should really use words like customer, shareholder value, efficiency, cheaper and environmentally friendly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of saving the planet; I re-cycle furiously and use energy saving light bulbs. So I think that buys me a little 20th Century railway heritage :-)

Simon


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.11.2013 07:48, schrieb simon.cuddeford@btinternet.com:
Bah - Modern railways are rubbish.
[...] How naive of me to want my railways run by Engineers and not
accountants.

How silly of me to want words like faster, passenger, more beautiful
and louder in my railway vocabulary when I should really use words
like customer, shareholder value, efficiency, cheaper and
environmentally friendly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of saving the planet; I
re-cycle furiously and use energy saving light bulbs. So I think
that buys me a little 20th Century railway heritage :-)
I'm not very sure if you would like railways run only by engineers. It
was the engineers who thought, the accountants meant "cheaper", when
they said "more efficient". That's probably the most important
misunderstanding in the modern world... (I'm saying this as an accountant!)

However, a railway that isn't efficient can't survive, not with the best
engineers. In the best of all cases it will end up as a heritage
operation. But that's not the real thing, methinks. But I haven't heard of "shareholder value" in Swiss railway companies ... apart from Jungfraubahn and Gornergratbahn ...

I'm somewhat surprised, you want the railway "faster". Isn't that going to be a TGV-design railway? Do you want /that/?

Note that passenger is a more specific word for "public transport customer", there isn't really a difference if you use one or the other word.

"Louder", now that's a problem. People living along railway lines fight loud trains. If you want to see the trains running, you will have to accept the noise reduced kind.

And comparing to energy saving light bulbs, you would contribute far more to saving the planet when using the environmental friendly train instead of the car. Provided, we speak about an efficient railway (not a cheap one, though).

;-)

Markus, G�rbetal


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 7:48 AM, simon.cuddeford@btinternet.com
<simon.cuddeford@btinternet.com> wrote:


I guess you're right. How naive of me to want my railways run by Engineers and not accountants.
Spare me from companies run by engineers. And I'm speaking as an
engineer here...

(And to be honest, I love modern EMUs...)

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


csipromo
 

All of the attention paid to high speed rail has led to situations where it was reported around 2006 that the occupancy of ICE trains on the new line between Frankfurt and Cologne was under 40% of capacity. All of the drive to compete with air travel has the potential risk of alienating the customers who want to enjoy the scenic trip.
As a train lover, do I want to ride a train on a line where the only vista is sound blocking panels and the occasion view of the top of house, hill or skyline?
I like being able to leisurely travel, to take in the view as the train goes from town to town. Compartments used to be a great way to interact with other people. The face to face seating of some trains (e.g. SBB) at least still allow this, whereas the airplane style seating of many trains makes it more impersonal.
People today can't lean out of the coach window at a station and buy a sandwich.
The rail administrations need to remember that rail is not just a point to point mechanism for business travel, but an integral part of national tourism.

As far as people complaining about noise from trains, planes, etc... If you knew that there was a train line, airport, etc near you when you bought/rented your house, you should have known that there would be noise. 

Railroads need to be run by businessmen who have a background not just in business, but in railroading, tourism and customer relations, so that they can make business decisions that have the best overall implications.

For example, replacing a lok and coach consist with a fixed trainset prevents the addition of supplemental coaches in case of peak periods. You have to add a second complete trainset with duplication of diner coach and there is no access from one trainset to the other. I can understand that the trainset means that you no longer have to set aside locomotives for changes at end stations, but this does mean that in case of problems, the entire trainset must be withdrawn rather than just the lok or coach (as the case may be). Whatever policies you implement, they have to be tempered by the good of the passenger and the good of the country.

My 2 Rappen.

Mike C 


bs177@...
 

> All of the attention paid to high speed rail has led to situations where it was reported

> around 2006 that the occupancy of ICE trains on the new line between Frankfurt and Cologne

> was under 40% of capacity. All of the drive to compete with air travel has the potential risk of

> alienating the customers who want to enjoy the scenic trip.


As a train lover, do I want to ride a train on a line where the only vista is sound blocking panels and the occasion view of the top of house, hill or skyline?
I like being able to leisurely travel, to take in the view as the train goes from town to town. Compartments used to be a great way to interact with other people. The face to face seating of some trains (e.g. SBB) at least still allow this, whereas the airplane style seating of many trains makes it more impersonal.
People today can't lean out of the coach window at a station and buy a sandwich.
The rail administrations need to remember that rail is not just a point to point mechanism for business travel, but an integral part of national tourism.

Surely it is a case of horses for courses.  I cannot imagine that the average Swiss rail user is any different from those in France or Germany - they want to get from A to B as quickly as possible. Yes, there are parts of Switzerland where the passenger make-up is very different and those travelling for the scenery form the majority.  In general the railways of Switzerland have provided for both the external and internal market very well.  We can all mourn the loss of this or that loco or method of working but SBB is not a museum and it needs to modernise its ways of working to survive when there are so many forms of competing transport.  Of course there will be people who will miss the scenery going up and down the ramps of the Gotthard for example but they will I am sure be more than outnumbered by the extra people attracted by the faster journey times. Half of them will be asleep anyway and not even notice! I am sure that Markus will be able to furnish us with a statistic or two which shows how many journeys are made by tourists compared with domestic traffic. I think I am right in saying that the Swiss make more journeys by train than most if not all of their European neighbours and I would not be surprised if tourist traffic forms a surprisingly small proportion of the total journeys made.


Bruce


Krist van Besien
 

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 7:50 PM, <csipromo@yahoo.com> wrote:

I like being able to leisurely travel, to take in the view as the train goes from town to town. Compartments used to be a great way to interact with other people. The face to face seating of some trains (e.g. SBB) at least still allow this, whereas the airplane style seating of many trains makes it more impersonal.
People today can't lean out of the coach window at a station and buy a sandwich.
The rail administrations need to remember that rail is not just a point to point mechanism for business travel, but an integral part of national tourism.

Rail is firstly an intergral part of the national transportation
infrastructures. Most of the passengers on trains in Switzerland are
not "travellers", they are commuters. I commute on the SBB network
daily. I don't miss not being able to open the window and I would
prefer more air line style seating.

Oh, and I have never missed the fact that I can't buy a sandwich out
of a coach window. I've actually never done such in thing in my life,
nor have I ever seen someone do this, so I wonder what it really is
I'm missing here.
If I want a sandwich I buy it at the station...

The railway administrators of the SBB thankfully live in the 21st century.

Railroads need to be run by businessmen who have a background not just in business, but in railroading, tourism and customer relations, so that they can make business decisions that have the best overall implications.
SBB should be in good hands then.

For example, replacing a lok and coach consist with a fixed trainset prevents the addition of supplemental coaches in case of peak periods. You have to add a second complete trainset with duplication of diner coach and there is no access from one trainset to the other. I can understand that the trainset means that you no longer have to set aside locomotives for changes at end stations, but this does mean that in case of problems, the entire trainset must be withdrawn rather than just the lok or coach (as the case may be).
The train I usually take home is comprised of two train sets. One of
the train sets looks like a conventional loco hauled train to the
untrained eye, and the other train set is un powered, and looks like
just a rake of cars. Usually when I get to the platform this second
set has just been added. And yes, only the first, powered set has a
restaurant car, and yes, you can't get from one to the other, and no,
nobody seems to mind.

So you're already too late. SBB is all train sets already... :-)

Whatever policies you implement, they have to be tempered by the good of the passenger and the good of the country.
Don't forget that "the good of the passenger" is not the same as "the
good of the average Brittish railfan".

I like trains. I consider myself a railfan. However I'm also someone
who relies on public transportation as a primary mode of getting
around. (I have never owned a car) I currently commute daily from Bern
to Basel.
I am also a tax payer, one who moved to Switzerland because taxes are
lower here.

So I appreciate that SBB tries to be efficient both from a technical
and from accounting point of view.
For example, adding coaches to a loco hauled consist to react to
demand is not efficient. It is more efficient to have a fixed consist
that is sufficient most of the time, and to steer passengers away from
the busiest trains to less busy trains by other means (which SBB can't
employ at the moment for political reasons).

SBB actually adapts to fluctuations in passenger numbers far better
than most railways, especially some railways that still operate in a
more railfart/fan friendly way. The concept of having fixed consists
that you add "modules" to works. You see it in the recent order for IC
stock. where the base consist will be 8 cars, with 4 and 8 car modules
added as needed. I can't wait for those trains to start operating.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 13.11.2013 15:03, schrieb Krist van Besien:
Most of the passengers on trains in Switzerland are
not "travellers", they are commuters.
Christ, while I agree with your other statements (!), I don't agree with your statistics. I don't have another wrong figure at hand but the overall percentage of commuters in total traffic dropped to somewhere around twenty percent. This doesn't mean that the absolute number of commuters was reduced, but growth in touristic/leisure traffic was much more important.

Now if you think about the Bern�Basel train, you might be among very many commuters. Also the train before you and the train after might be like that. Same in the evening. But the rest of the day you will not find many commuters, will you? From a total of 36 trains a day in each direction, not more than 10 will really be filled with commuters.

And then, don't forget that not each person going to Basel for business is a commuter. It might just be a business traveller. :-)

Markus, G�rbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 13.11.2013 19:34, schrieb Guerbetaler:
Am 13.11.2013 15:03, schrieb Krist van Besien:
Sorry for mistyping your name, Krist. I was aware that it isn't a German name, but... Sorry again.

Markus


Krist van Besien
 

On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Guerbetaler
<muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de> wrote:

Christ, while I agree with your other statements (!), I don't agree with
your statistics. I don't have another wrong figure at hand but the
overall percentage of commuters in total traffic dropped to somewhere
around twenty percent.
Maybe I should have phrased it differently. The majority of the
passengers on most trains are people for whom the train is just
something that brings them from A to B in a reliable and and
comfortable way. For those people what matters more that the train is
clean, not that it has an engine at the front...

People for whom being on a train is part of the experience are a tiny
minority. I am part of that minority but do not claim any entitlements
because of that.

Krist
(Yes, with a K. My parents met on the barricades during "Leuven Vlaams")


--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Heléna Moretti
 

 
Krist said
 
"The majority of the passengers on most trains are people for whom the train is just something that brings them from A to B in a reliable and and comfortable way. For those people what matters more that the train is clean, not that it has an engine at the front...

People for whom being on a train is part of the experience are a tiny minority. I am part of that minority but do not claim any entitlements
because of that."

Krist
(Yes, with a K. My parents met on the barricades during "Leuven Vlaams")
....
Goede morgen Krist, hoe gaat het?
 
The important point made by both Krist (with his taxpayers and commuters hat on) and Markus (with a view to the bigger picture) is that on the main trunk routes and suburban high volume services, cheap, interchangeable, modern units are going to become the solution. Where I hold out hope is on the scenic, less populous routes, and post-Gotthard tunnel, the old Gotthard route will be an example where the A to B people are very much smaller as a percentage. Rail tourism is a vital part of the Swiss economy (and brings in revenue and reduces taxes :-) for Krist), this line has a rich history and will still be a crucial diversionary route at times. I hope SBB or whomsoever runs the line will avoid the temptation to Lotschberger it and keep it as locomotive and stock, with 1st class viewing cars and perhaps even go the whole hog and run it as a "heritage themed" service, with Re6/6, Ae6/6 and Re4/4 " hauled services. Perhaps even a Krok from Erstfeld to Goschenen at weekends.
 
Come on guys, you know secretly that you want it, we rail tourists would love it and it would enable the old route to become a major tourist attraction with valuable income for the small towns along its route.
 
Regards
Helena


Nigel Emery
 

On 14/11/2013 10:20, Heléna Moretti wrote:
The important point made by both Krist (with his taxpayers and commuters hat on) and Markus (with a view to the bigger picture) is that on the main trunk routes and suburban high volume services, cheap, interchangeable, modern units are going to become the solution. Where I hold out hope is on the scenic, less populous routes, and post-Gotthard tunnel, the old Gotthard route will be an example where the A to B people are very much smaller as a percentage. Rail tourism is a vital part of the Swiss economy (and brings in revenue and reduces taxes :-) for Krist), this line has a rich history and will still be a crucial diversionary route at times. I hope SBB or whomsoever runs the line will avoid the temptation to Lotschberger it and keep it as locomotive and stock, with 1st class viewing cars and perhaps even go the whole hog and run it as a "heritage themed" service, with Re6/6, Ae6/6 and Re4/4 " hauled services. Perhaps even a Krok from Erstfeld to Goschenen at weekends.

Your going to be disappointed then! According to an article in the current Railway Update the proposal is an hourly FLIRT from the TILO fleet.

Nigel


csipromo
 

While I understand and appreciate the role of a railway as a commuter people bringer during rush hour, the railway must also depend on tourism and leisure travel for a large part of it's business and revenue.


On the NBS between Frankfurt and Koeln, occupancy a few years after the opening of the new route was around 35-40% of capacity. During rush hour, commuters today travel farther than they did a generation ago. Today, it is not uncommon to see people commuting from Basel to Zuerich or Bern or similar.


This shuttle reality has to be combined with the operation of a long distance train network. In Germany, DBAG split operations between DB Regio and DB Fernverkehr. Each division has their own fleet and administration. In Switzerland, both roles are still combined under SBB Personenverkehr.


We have to differentiate between the S-Bahn and Regio trains that carry a lot of the commuter traffic and the Intercity and EuroCity traffic that is used more frequently by long distance travellers and tourists. Given that Switzerland is a small country compared to Germany and France and that is possible to travel from one part of the country to another in a couple of hours, high speed trains will likely provide people with the ability to commute to the business centres from almost the other end of the country.


They still must not forget about the business that is derived from tourism. People who want to see the country from the rails and people who want to leisurely travel the classical way. As more and more travellers abandon rail in favour of cheap city to city flights, the railroads have to remember that the train trip itself can be an attraction. It is one thing for a business traveller to want to get from City A to City B as fast as possible and he/she likely does not care if the only thing that can be seen from the window are sound barriers and tunnels. It is quite something else for the tourist who no longer gets a close up view of the alps, of the Church at Wassen and the rest of the scenery that the train passes through.


I am not talking specifically about UK railfans. I am talking about people from around the world who are influenced about all things Swiss by what they see on their travels. I would not be who I am if it was not for my experiences and observations the year that I spent in Switzerland as a child. I would not model Swiss trains.


The same circumstances also affect the attitude of Swiss citizens. I don't think that the average Swiss youth has the same respect for the railroad that their parents and grandparents did. That also extends to respect for other passengers, etc.


It is crucially important to remember that all aspects of the operation of a railway have to be taken into consideration and it has to be done in such a way that it can be done effectively. It may be better to have one administration of commuter, regional and long distance traffic, or a central administration who can oversee and ensure that the various sub groups are working together to look after all aspects of the operation.


As far as the Gotthard, I predict that at least one track will be kept in operation for regional and historic operation with passing tracks at select locations. I also think that it is likely that the second track might eventually be converted to dual gauge or narrow gauge operation, to permit the MGB to offer a direct Erstfeld to Andermatt connection.


Having seen the demise of passenger traffic in North America in the 1970s and it's slow recovery. I like that the network has been retained as a national infrastructure, but I fear that Europe is making some of the same mistakes that we made here, so I hope that my observations and perception can help people understand some of the pitfalls facing the industry today.


Regards


Mike C

 


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 14.11.2013 07:34, schrieb Krist van Besien:
Maybe I should have phrased it differently. The majority of the
passengers on most trains are people for whom the train is just
something that brings them from A to B in a reliable and and
comfortable way. For those people what matters more that the train is
clean, not that it has an engine at the front...
Yes, now I agree. And even if you look at those passengers who are taking the Golden Pass Panoramic and not wanting to get from A to B or from M to Z but wanting to travel in a panoramic car in that beautiful landscape, they don't mind if their motive power is a locomotive or whatever. They are just happy that the train is moving.

(Now be prepared that the 9000s will take over from the 8000s and the 9000s are from that sort of articulated locomotives with passenger access... :-P )


OL.Guerbetal
 

Only a few further remarks, much could still be said...

Am 14.11.2013 20:48, schrieb csipromo@yahoo.com:
The same circumstances also affect the attitude of Swiss citizens. I
don't think that the average Swiss youth has the same respect for the
railroad that their parents and grandparents did.
For young urban people it's becoming normal NOT to rely on cars as the most important means of transportation.

It is crucially important to remember that all aspects of the operation
of a railway have to be taken into consideration and it has to be done
in such a way that it can be done effectively. It may be better to have
one administration of commuter, regional and long distance traffic, or a
central administration who can oversee and ensure that the various sub
groups are working together to look after all aspects of the operation.
I guess that the best rail offers in Switzerland are those of non-central administrations.

As far as the Gotthard, I predict that at least one track will be kept
in operation for regional and historic operation with passing tracks at
select locations. I also think that it is likely that the second track
might eventually be converted to dual gauge or narrow gauge operation,
to permit the MGB to offer a direct Erstfeld to Andermatt connection.
Not quite. There are two possible ways:

1) No investments in the old line, just keeping it going with an hourly RegioExpress.

2) Swiss citizens vote against a new road tunnel and the old line is needed for replacement services (car and lorry shuttles) during reconstruction of the existing road tunnel. This could in fact mean a reduction to one track in tunnels to allow 4m lorries to be transported.

Having seen the demise of passenger traffic in North America in the
1970s and it's slow recovery. I like that the network has been retained
as a national infrastructure, but I fear that Europe is making some of
the same mistakes that we made here, so I hope that my observations and
perception can help people understand some of the pitfalls facing the
industry today.
Distances, population density and many other things are different here in Europe. We *have* lost some important services as were the night trains to Italy and Spain and many cross-border connections in several European regions. On the other hand, new offers, also cross-border, come up. We still have hope. Rail business is living, not passing away.

Markus, Gürbetal