Grimselbahn


OL.Guerbetal
 

Jungfrau Zeitung reports about a new project of a Grimsel railway. The idea is to build a tunnel to be commonly used by a high voltage power cable and a railway. The cantons Bern and Wallis have been asked for a contribution to realize a preliminary study.

Markus, Gürbetal


stephenhorobin
 

It seems that this is one of those projects which appears from time to time.
There is a web page dated from 2013 but I'm sure I have seen this one long before!
It may be just a fancy but in Switzerland anything is possible!


Steve.


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 11.09.2015 um 22:14 schrieb stephenhorobin@yahoo.com [SwissRail]:
It may be just a fancy but in Switzerland anything is possible!
Difference to former projects at the Grimsel, Sanetsch and others is the interest in the tunnel by Swissgrid!

Markus, G�rbetal


gordonwis
 

But it makes a great deal of sense if married up with a separate non-transport agency also involved and wanting to bore a way through the base of a mountain


Kidger Paul
 

On the face of it, this appears to be a very high cost project but I wonder about the benefits? Would such a link have all year round traffic to justify the expense? Foregive my ignorance but I presume this would constitute a link between the ZB and the ex FO. Paul Kidger


Christopher
 

Hi,


John Marshall mentioned the previous proposals for a Grimsel Railway in his now classic book "Metre Gauge Railways in South and East Switzerland." The idea has 2 major issues. The MGB and ZB lines use different voltages, although both are AC lines (the MIB, which actually forms the first section of a Grimsel railway route, uses DC) so that could be overcome on locos and EMUs. But the big problem is the 2 different rack systems, the MGB's Abt and the ZB's Riggenbach. Marshall described that as being very difficult/impossible to deal with.


If built, however, it would be a very useful link and would open-up through running between Zermatt, St. Moritz and the other resorts on the Glacier/Bernina Express network and Interlaken, Lucerne and, potentially, Lauterbrunnen and Grindelwald (if the rack incompatibility and AC/DC voltages issues could be overcome). If the 3rd Rail idea for Interlaken - Zweisimmen was revived - unlikely with the new variable gauge bogies that the MOB have developed - then Montreux could be reached as well.......


The route definitely has potential, but would it be enough to justify the costs of such a long tunnel, as well as investment needed to overcome the technical problems mentioned above?


Chris


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 24.09.2015 um 18:40 schrieb cmrosindale@hotmail.com [SwissRail]:
The route definitely has potential, but would it be enough to justify
the costs of such a long tunnel, as well as investment needed to
overcome the technical problems mentioned above?
1) It is proposed to rebuild MIB with ac. Fitting ac motive power for dual voltage 11/15 kV shouldn't be a real problem.

2) The costs of the project are lowered to a reasonable sum thanks to the interest of Swissgrid to use the tunnel for high voltage lines (and paying a substantial share of the bill for the bore).

3) Gauge-change rolling stock (MOB) could travel to Andermatt.

3) Riggenbach-equipped rolling stock (ZB) would be able to reach Andermatt,

4) Abt-equipped rolling stock (GEX, MGB) could reach Interlaken Ost.

5) Idea for the start is to have an hourly train connecting with MGB trains in Oberwald.

Markus, G�rbetal


Max Wyss
 

On 24 September 2015 at 19:56, Guerbetaler muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de
[SwissRail] <SwissRail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

3) Gauge-change rolling stock (MOB) could travel to Andermatt.

Actually, Gauge-change rolling stock could even get beyond, if equipped
with Abt braking cog. And individual cars theoretically could run through,
even if not equipped with cog brakes.

Max.


Chris Wood
 

Isn't there already a rail tunnel under much of the route from Innertkirchen to the Grimsel, albeit not a public one. Owned by the KWO electricity company that also owns the MIB, to give all-year access to their hydro plants just below the pass.

I seem to recall reading about it being used to transport school children in winter, when the road approach to the pass is closed. And I have a vague recollection of seeing some historic rolling stock from it on display at Innertkirchen, along with with one of the MIBs old battery-electric railcars.


j.p.a.kok@...
 

Max, are you sure that the construction of this Gauge-change bogie can adept a braking cog wheel, I have reasonable doubts.


Max Wyss
 

On 25 September 2015 at 13:15, j.p.a.kok@planet.nl [SwissRail] <
SwissRail@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Max, are you sure that the construction of this Gauge-change bogie can
adept a braking cog wheel, I have reasonable doubts.
Hmmm… good point. I'd have to find a decent drawing and a description of
the bogie.

But then, at least not for the Oberalp and the Goms lines, there is no need
that all cars are cog-braked (a good example for that are/were the
restaurant cars in the Glacier Express)

Max.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


glenn allen
 

On Friday, 25 September 2015, 11:50, "chris_j_wood@yahoo.com" wrote:
Isn't there already a rail tunnel under much of the route from Innertkirchen to the Grimsel,

Looking at Google maps the satellite version shows a line off the ned of Innertkirchen station running along the road to a tunnel mouth. Is this the one you are thinking of?


Christopher
 

The problem there Max is that the MOB's gauge changing bogie has no axles, the sides of the bogie move in and out to allow the wheels to change gauge. The Swiss Railway Society's journal, Swiss Express, had an article on the bogie a while ago, and the inability to fit it with rack equipment was clearly mentioned.


Chris


Christopher
 

I agree,


But would Andermatt be a worthwhile destination for through trains from Interlaken, Lucerne or Montreux? Maybe if the plan to develop it as a ski resort takes off. Converting the MIB to AC is long overdue, and would allow local trains from Interlaken to run through to Innertkirchen.


I would have thought that potential exists in running through trains between St. Moritz, Davos, Klosters and Zermatt to Interlaken, Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen Lucerne and Engelberg - especially in Winter as they would link a group of very popular winter sports areas - and could create a new 3rd scenic rail route, alongside the Glacier Express and Golden Pass ones which would be attractive to tourists. But to do so would involve resolving the rack issue, perhaps by converting the ZB and BOB lines to Abt?


The DFB would benefit, as a Grimsel rail link to Oberwald would greatly improve access to them from areas like Bern, Lucerne (shorter than the present way via Goschenen), Lausanne and Geneva. It would also - if they were piloted through the Grimsel tunnel - allow their trains, on special occasions, to reach Interlaken where the BDB is based (the BDB trains could also reach Oberwald the same way, and if they were piloted over the Oberalp pass and through the Furka and Grimsel tunnels, allow the RhB's heritage steam and carriage stock to reach Interlaken as well..... But all that would just be a bonus of a Grimsel tunnel......!


Where would such a tunnel start from at the Innertkirchen end, if there is any news on that. Innertkirchen or would they head up the Haslital for a distance before entering the tunnel?


Chris


Kidger Paul
 

A slight drift here. During this topic mention has been made of the 'incompatibility between 11 kV AC and 15 kV AC supplies. I seem to remember this being raised some time ago in connection with the overhead line equipment around Chur station where the RhB and SBB, in places share the same OHLE. On first sight, I would not have thought that this represents too many problems. Rolling stock designed for 15 kV should be able to work quite well on 11 kV. Maybe at reduced power unless it has a suitable primary winding on the transformer. Likewise 11 kV stock, with a suitable transformer primary winding, should also not offer too many difficulties..If anyone has any other comments, then I would be interested to learn of them. Re the gauge changing, I think there is video around somewhere of the auto changing on the French Spanish border which involves removing locking pins, moving the wheels on the axles, then reinserting the pins....all done as the train moves through at walking pace.
Paul Kidger


OL.Guerbetal
 

The Guttannen - Handegg tube (gauge 500 mm) is a very small tunnel with a gradient of nearly 9%, thus nothing to be reused.

Running 15 kV motive power under 11 kV is no problem for old "analog" locomotives. But modern motive power has so many protection functions which makes them inoperable under 12 kV. Sure you could adapt the software, which wouldn't be too expensive. But after that you need approval again and this is why nobody would want to do it...

The idea of the main tunnel is for a combined power line and railway tunnel between Guttannen and Oberwald, replacing the existing high voltage lines over the Grimsel in partly protected and for many weeks (because of the danger of avalanches) inaccessible landscape.

The add-on would be a railway tunnel from Innertkirchen to Guttannen, giving this village an all-year-round connection with the world. Today the road to Guttannen is kept open at high costs but it isn't possible on 365 days.

Cogwheels don't sit on the axle of wheels. The gauge-change bogie has some space where a cogwheel could be placed. I have discussed this question with the person who invented the bogie. But it would require an important investment in studies, construction, tests and approval. This is why this can only be done in a later step and if the economic results let expect such a development to become a success.

Markus, G�rbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 25.09.2015 um 17:58 schrieb cmrosindale@hotmail.com [SwissRail]:
But would Andermatt be a worthwhile destination for through trains
from Interlaken, Lucerne or Montreux?
Well, looking at travelling times, there isn't much that a Grimsel tunnel could improve. You can travel from Lucerne to Visp, changing in Berne, on standard gauge in 2:02

On the narrow gauge you need
0:30 my estimation for Merinigen - Oberwald
1:11 Luzern - Meiringen
1:13 Oberwald - Visp with a direct train
1:38 Oberwald - Visp with a regular Regio
0:32 Interlaken Ost - Meiringen with an IR
0:36 Oberwald - Andermatt

This gives an estimation for the following travelling times:
2:10 Luzern - Andermatt (today 1:35 via G�schenen)
4:00 Luzern - Zermatt (today 3:13 via LBT)
1:40 Interlaken - Andermatt (today 2:41 via LBT - GEX)
3:30 Interlaken - Zermatt (today 2:05 via LBT)
5:50 Interlaken - Davos (today 4:32 via NBS)
6:20 Interlaken - St. Moritz (today 5:09 via NBS
2:20 Interlaken - Visp (today 0:54 via LBT)
1:05 Interlaken - Oberwald (today 2:29 via LBT)
1:45 Interlaken - Fiesch (today 1:47 via LBT)
2:10 Bern - Interlaken - Oberwald (today 2:30 via LBT)
4:25 Interlaken - Chur (today 3:22 via NBS)

From this you can see that a Grimsel tunnel doesn't help to save time except Interlaken - Andermatt.

Markus, G�rbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 25.09.2015 um 16:50 schrieb glenn allen:
Looking at Google maps the satellite version shows a line off the ned
of Innertkirchen station running along the road to a tunnel mouth. Is
this the one you are thinking of?
That's an industrial siding leading to the Innertkirchen power central but no further. Track in the "tunnel" is just long enough to put there a wagon to be unloaded. I had the chance that the door was open when I was there in June.

<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Innertkirchen_Anschlussgleis_Kraftwerkzentrale_KWO_2015.JPG>

Markus, Gürbetal


Christopher
 

Hi Glenn,
That is the freight-only line leading into the KWO underground power station, which is why the MIB was built. It was originally used to bring in the building materials. Former RhB steam Mallet tanks were used on it at one point.
Chris


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 25.09.2015 um 19:44 schrieb Guerbetaler:
The Guttannen - Handegg tube (gauge 500 mm) is a very small tunnel with
a gradient of nearly 9%, thus nothing to be reused.
This photo allows you to easily compare the clearance of the Guttannen - Handegg tunnel against MIB clearance. The two railcars are out of use and on exhibition in Innertkirchen.

<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Innertkirchen_-_panoramio.jpg>

Markus, G�rbetal