Gotthardbahn


Andrew Moglestue
 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 05:03 AM, csipromo wrote:
I think that the comment about preferring the Ticino to Fluelen ride over the
southbound trip is due to the fact that the southbound track
That is true. However there are other arguments that speak for going the other way. I always find the Gotthard route going South to be like a series of visual discoveries, each one greater than the last. So first you have the Lake of Lucerne which of course is a very beautiful stretch but you are basically down in the valley and the mountains are visible but still up there and far away. Then once past Erstfeld the line gradually transforms more into a mountain railway and the quality of both scenery and interesting features of the line itself increase as you gain altitude. Yet all this time you have been in German-speaking Switzerland. Coming out in Airolo you are in the Ticino which is a different world. The architecture is clearly different and even the vegetation. Quaint old churches cling to the sides of the valley. As a first time visitor, it is something that you really don't expect. A surreal kaleidoscope of impressions. Then as you approach Lugano the wild Alpine scenery transforms into a more Meditteranean climate with palm trees and intensely coloured flowers. Lugano itself is a sort of mini Florence. Or at least that is how I remember feeling about it on my first visit there many many years ago.


Andrew Moglestue
 

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 07:44 PM, Ewan Tait wrote:
Has there been any talk of reopening the local stations on the north ramp? Or
will they simply continue to serve them by bus?
I doubt it. I think many of the stations are away from the villages they serve, so the bus is actually a better option.


csipromo
 

Gordonwis,

I think that the comment about preferring the Ticino to Fluelen ride over the southbound trip is due to the fact that the southbound track spends a lot of time in the Axen area between Schwyz and Fluelen The northbound line spends more time in short tunnels and has more scenery along the Urnersee/Vierwaldstattersee (aka Lake of Lucerne).

Regards

Mike C


Ewan Tait
 

On 24 Jan 2021, at 16:03, csipromo via groups.io <csipromo=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I was under the understanding that there were still freights over the old route if those trains included loads that were not authorized for the base tunnel. I don't know if this has changed over the past few years.
Upon opening, all freight was authorised for the GBT as far as I’m aware.

Subsequently a problem arose with aggregate trains as the dust that they produce was causing following trains to overheat. Aggregate trains were, when I looked a few years ago, going over the mountain route. But there was only ever one or two a day in each direction.

Cheers,
Ewan

--
http://ewan.me.uk


Ewan Tait
 

On 24 Jan 2021, at 20:55, Guerbetaler <guerbetaler@sunrise.ch> wrote:


Is there a federal law requiring SBB to maintain the line in its
current state?
Not a law. The concession and the "Leistungsvereinbarung" require that the line is kept open, but at reduced costs (as a regional line).
Has there been any talk of reopening the local stations on the north ramp? Or will they simply continue to serve them by bus?

Cheers,
Ewan

--
http://ewan.me.uk


Ewan Tait
 

On 24 Jan 2021, at 16:25, Andrew Moglestue via groups.io <amogles=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

As far as I know there are no freight sidings being along the old route that are still served, not even sporadically.
In the years leading up to the opening of the GBT I saw little freight to destinations between Erstfeld and Pollegio. Rexwal containers (coke I think) from Germany to Bodio (which now runs to Bellinzona or Biasca I think) and the odd train to Gurtnellen.

Cheers,
Ewan

--
http://ewan.me.uk


csipromo
 

I know that there was talk at one point about taking one of the two tracks and replacing it with narrow gauge, which would allow the MGB to run all the way to Erstfeld. It's been quite a few years since I had heard any talk about that. I like the present SOB Traverso option. Having taken the GBT in soutbound 2019, it is cool to do it once, but as a tourist/train fan, I would much rather take the old route and view the scenery. The GBT was like riding the Montreal subway from one end to the other. Fast, but not much too see.

Markus, my question about the start point was that when I inquired about the GPE in July 2019, I was told that the train was Flüelen to Ticino and there was no boarding in Luzern or Arth-Goldau. I was told that I had to take a regio to Flüelen and transfer there. It was at that point I decided to do the base tunnel instead.

Regards

Mike C


gordonwis
 

On Sunday, 24 January 2021, 21:17:15 GMT, Andrew Moglestue via groups.io <amogles=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
3) my personal hope is that tourism will also pick up when the pandemic finally allows, and that the present once a day panoramic train, which is really only suitable for people starting from the Ticino end, can be extended into several trains a day, maybe a bit like the Glacier Express. And maybe also an increase in use of historic locomotives and rolling stock. But all this is speculative.
I don't agree with the suggestion that the current GPE is only suitable for people starting from the Ticino end. Plenty of tourists leave from Luzern and most of them want the lake boat ride first, so by the time they reach Lugano the trip has taken up a full day, so they generally stay there - either for one night before taking the Bernina Express bus in the morning; or staying in Ticino for a while; or moving on to the Italian part of their two-country holiday.

The new SOB service is a 'panorama' type service like the Lötschberger so an expanded GPE is unlikely - especially with the inexorable move to an all multiple unit Swiss railways. I think the hope for regular historic trains (talked about for many years now ever since the GBT plan was revealed) will be deemed too costly.


Guerbetaler
 

Am 24.01.2021 um 22:12 schrieb Andrew Moglestue via groups.io:
1) loss of Gothardbahn would affect Schöllenenbahn and thus Andermatt
and other resorts would be cut off or only reachable by a lengthy
detour. In contrast to centralized countries such as Britain and
France, where the central government can just shrug that off
(Canfranc line for example), in Switzerland the cantons have a lot of
political leverage and I don't think the cantons concerned would
stand for it.
The MGI would take over the right-of-way and the Schöllenenbahn would (again) have direct connections to international traffic. :-)

Next step would be to get a lane in the Seelisberg tunnel for the meter gauge and you could connect it to the Zentralbahn in Stans. :-) :-)
Far better than the Grimsel Tunnel. :-P

Markus, Gürbetal


Guerbetaler
 

Am 24.01.2021 um 23:01 schrieb Andrew Moglestue via groups.io:
They said something similar about Eurotunnel as well, but all the
major incidents that occurred have led to both tunnels closing.
I'm afraid that the real problem for incidents is Arth-Goldau - Erstfeld and not the GBT itself. A second access Luzern - Stans - Altdorf parallel to the motorway would be a good thing.

Markus, Gürbetal


Andrew Moglestue
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 09:55 PM, Guerbetaler wrote:
However, the two independent bores make it likely that at least one of them
can still be used.
They said something similar about Eurotunnel as well, but all the major incidents that occurred have led to both tunnels closing.

I hope the Gotthard Base Tunnel is more operationally robust in that respect.


davey
 

Many of the crossovers were removed once the GBT was opened. Thus, with the requirement for banking locos, the mountain route would never be able to sustain anything like the same volume of traffic.

Envoyé de mon Galaxy model_name Orange
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>


Andrew Moglestue
 

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 09:12 PM, George Raymond wrote:
In case of a major incident (flood, rockslide), how fast will the line be
restored, if at all?
Nobody can predict all future scenarios. But some arguments that strongly speak against this:

Of course my own personal speculation of course. I'm not claiming any greater wisdom here.

1) loss of Gothardbahn would affect Schöllenenbahn and thus Andermatt and other resorts would be cut off or only reachable by a lengthy detour. In contrast to centralized countries such as Britain and France, where the central government can just shrug that off (Canfranc line for example), in Switzerland the cantons have a lot of political leverage and I don't think the cantons concerned would stand for it.

2) the Gotthardbahn is part of the Swiss mythos and national identity and I don't think people would just accept it being closed down.

3) my personal hope is that tourism will also pick up when the pandemic finally allows, and that the present once a day panoramic train, which is really only suitable for people starting from the Ticino end, can be extended into several trains a day, maybe a bit like the Glacier Express. And maybe also an increase in use of historic locomotives and rolling stock. But all this is speculative.


Guerbetaler
 

Am 24.01.2021 um 20:00 schrieb George Raymond:
Will SBB be tempted to reduce it to single track? I hope not! (In a
very different country like the US this can happen quickly.)
This has in fact been discussed but was rejected as too expensive. It would be a possibility to reach EBV3 profile. However, it would also reduce capacity. There is no business case for such a move. If I say business case, I include non-monetary aspects.

In case of a major incident (flood, rockslide), how fast will the
line be restored, if at all?
It will not, except for single level IC trains, that can go over it at any time.

Is the line still considered a viable alternative in case of a major
problem in the base tunnel?
No, because it can't be used by double deck passenger trains and hardly any of the freight trains would fit into the old tunnels (EBV1 profile) AND bring enough motive power for the grades. In case of an event, freight trains are rerouted via Lötschberg. For passengers a combination of trains over the top and buses through the road tunnel might be considered. However, the two independent bores make it likely that at least one of them can still be used.

Since the end of the year access to GBT is possible with EBV3 profile.

Is there a federal law requiring SBB to maintain the line in its
current state?
Not a law. The concession and the "Leistungsvereinbarung" require that the line is kept open, but at reduced costs (as a regional line).

If I recall correctly, the SBB resisted efforts to
make the Gotthard a UNESCO World Heritage Site to retain
flexibility.
That might change in the future.

Markus


Guerbetaler
 

Am 24.01.2021 um 17:03 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
Are all the SOB services running over the original line or are some
using the base tunnel?
Why should they? They are working on the IR26 / IR46 concecssion and this one is via Göschenen.
I thought that there were GPE services running both north-south and
south-north each day.
There is a South-North service PE 3092 Arth-Goldau ar 12:30

Is the train running to and from Arth-Goldau or is it still running
Flüelen to Lugano with boat transfer to/from Luzern?
Hm, wonder if you believe what I write...

You can check the timetable on www.fahrplanfelder.ch in tables 601 and 631.

Markus, Gürbetal


George Raymond
 

The great reduction of traffic on the Gotthard mountain route elicits the following questions:

Will SBB be tempted to reduce it to single track? I hope not! (In a very different country like the US this can happen quickly.)

In case of a major incident (flood, rockslide), how fast will the line be restored, if at all?

Is the line still considered a viable alternative in case of a major problem in the base tunnel?

Is there a federal law requiring SBB to maintain the line in its current state? If I recall correctly, the SBB resisted efforts to make the Gotthard a UNESCO World Heritage Site to retain flexibility.

George


--
Diese E-Mail wurde von AVG auf Viren geprüft.
http://www.avg.com


Andrew Moglestue
 

As far as I know there are no freight sidings being along the old route that are still served, not even sporadically.

One exception is in connection with the construction of the second Gotthard road tunnel, with some of the spoils being moved out by rail and the trans-shipped onto barges in Flüelen to be deposited in various locations in the lake as an anti erosion measure (much of the NEAT material was similarly disposed). But even this seems to be an on-off thing, as some of the spoils are being moved to other locations that are not rail-served.


csipromo
 

I was under the understanding that there were still freights over the old route if those trains included loads that were not authorized for the base tunnel. I don't know if this has changed over the past few years.

Are all the SOB services running over the original line or are some using the base tunnel?
I thought that there were GPE services running both north-south and south-north each day.
Is the train running to and from Arth-Goldau or is it still running Flüelen to Lugano with boat transfer to/from Luzern?

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

I got this question in private, but it might be of general interest. And perhaps there are amendments, as I live near the Lötschberg, not the Gotthard...(my last short visit in Göschenen was in July)

Because of that I would like to ask you - are there any regular freights over the old Gotthard route? And also, any loco hauled
services at all?
Rather not. Old Gotthard line has become a regional mountain line. You might find a few local freight trains and there had been a scrap train or something similar that took the old route. But I don't know, if this is still running. It's quiet now in Göschenen.

The only loco hauled, scheduled passenger train is the Gotthard Panorama Express (PE 3093), 1st class only, with supplement, reservation needed, running daily except Monday from 17 April - 24 October, also 24 May (Whitsun Monday), Arth-Goldau dp. 13:30.

Markus