BBC commentary on Swiss Railway Ticketing


tudor erich
 

Krist,
 
How do you know terrorists have not contemplated targeting the Channel Tunnel?
 
Are you a member of all the various groups and privy to their plans?
 
I understand they often work in `cells` such that members of other cells don`t know of the other cells or who is part of it.
 
So again, how do you `know`?
 
Bernard


bs177@...
 

--- In SwissRail@yahoogroups.com, Krist van Besien wrote:
protect less then 1% off all potential high value targets.
The main reason why the Channel tunnel has not been the target of a
terrorist attack is that so far no terrorist have even considered it.
There are not a lot of them around after all. The whole terrorism
thing is overblown.
I dont think that an on-going debate on security in the Channel Tunnel is relevant to this group but in closing, a fully loaded Eurostar train carries approx 794 passengers who might have different views to you even if you do not care if a terrorist attack occurs. A car or coach shuttle carries a fraction of that number of passengers.

The security regime for the Channel tunnel is/was determined by an Inter-Governmental Safety Commission and the security services for both countries.

The reason that terrorist groups have not considered such an attempt is precisely because of the security regime you see, and the security regime you dont see.

Cheers

bruce


Heléna Moretti
 

--- In mailto:SwissRail%40yahoogroups.com, Krist van Besien wrote:
" I was referring to something different. When I travel to the UK I have to be at the station where the train for London departs half an hour beforehand, queue up at a checkpoint and have my luggage scanned. Things that are not only a nuisance, but also completely pointless."

Yes but when flying you are expected to be at the airport 2 hours beforehand, you can take no liquids onto the plane (except the extortionate ones you buy after the security check), you are expected to take off your shoes and in the case of travelling to Switzerland have to queue to have your passport checked at both ends of the journey. Then wait to discover your luggage has been sent to Dhjibouti. The excessive checks are not the result of Eurostar policy but the policies of her majesty's government, they are much less inconvenient than the aircraft equivalent and I keep my luggage with me, including the toothpaste and bottle of water I bought more cheaply at home.
As for not worrying about dying at the hands of terrorists, you live in a nation that has not had the same recent exposure to mass acts of violence. The sight of the Twin Towers taking 5,000 people away from their families, the wreck of the Pan-Am flight scattered over the town of Lockerbie, the mangled wreck of tube trains and buses in London; these events have created a different attitude to travel in the U.K. Sure, all high speed trains are vulnerable, so are the motorway networks but both are incredibly difficult to police to same level as flights and international cross-channel trains. You may worry more about your dishwasher (and your taxes), but your attitude comes across as a little callous.
As for the debate on the strict application of the new penalty fares for Swiss transport users, to place such a rule in the hands of mere mortals is a little unfair of the authorities. They ask their inspectors to judge a stranger or hide behind a rule book when it is plain to see what the easiest course of action is.  The aim is to stop fare dodgers and save taxes, the principle that results is that you (as a passenger) are totally responsible for ensuring you have a valid ticket and all the supporting documents you need before you step on a train. The result of strict adherence to the rule and its principles are you alienate many to punish the few. You can't learn too soon that the most useful thing about a principle is that it
can always be sacrificed to expediency. ~Somerset Maugham
Helena
           

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OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 05:35, schrieb Krist van Besien:
BTW, when you buy tickets on www.bahn.de you can now enter that you
have a Swiss Halbtax, so your GF might look in to buying through
tickets again.
However, you don't get the same discounts in international traffic compared to inland traffic and Basel SBB counts as international, Basel Bad as national. Last year I bought two tickets Basel Bad�N�rnberg which were far cheaper than any available offer Basel SBB�N�rnberg, even entering the fact that I have a GA (which is valid as a RailCard 25 on international tickets).

AFAIK there is never a ticket control between Basel Bad and Basel SBB in international trains. So if I had a ticket to be obliterated, I would calmly keep it in my pocket and stamp it in Basel SBB.

Markus, G�rbetal


Andrew Moglestue
 

[moderator's note: We are slowly but clearly slipping off our
railway and Switzerland topic. Can we set the Chunnel security
& terrorism debate aside until there will be through trains from
Zürich? ... Thank you]

As for not worrying about dying at the hands of terrorists, you
live in a nation that has not had the same recent exposure to mass
acts of violence. The sight of the Twin Towers taking 5,000 people
away from their families, the wreck of the Pan-Am flight scattered
over the town of Lockerbie, the mangled wreck of tube trains and
buses in London; these events have created a different attitude to
travel in the U.K. .
Sure, but all that is fear in people's imaginations. The people killed in those attacks are such a diminishingly small percentage of the population that if only people (and politicians) would be more rational, they would know they have nothing to fear. More of us will die in lightning strikes than will die of terrorism. Terrorism, along with paedophilia and one or two other hobby horses such as Neo-Nazism, is just  one of those buzzwords that nanny state politicians use to justify draconian laws or disproportionate spending sprees, taking away freedom, all with very little effect on the ills they claim to be addressing, but greatly causing inconvenience for everybody else.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Andrew Moglestue
 

AFAIK there is never a ticket control between Basel Bad and Basel SBB in
international trains. So if I had a ticket to be obliterated, I would
calmly keep it in my pocket and stamp it in Basel SBB.
I was controlled once. This was many years ago though.
The inspector had an SBB uniform, and boarded at Basel Bad.


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 05:45, schrieb Krist van Besien:
So I think that if the UK can get away with this, and still get
tourists to visit that Switzerland's reputation isn't really in danger
from the new SBB ticket rules...
So we disagree. *I* think that you can't get a good reputation with being less bad than others. Then you only have a less bad reputation.

Markus, G�rbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 05:41, schrieb Krist van Besien:
So again, what is a conductor to do when faced with a person without
a valid ticket, but with a good story that he cannot verify...
If you reread my message you will note that I spoke about "stories" that can be verified and about persons with a wrong ticket (of the sort: bought a ticket to Olten and boarded the train to Luzern).

Markus, G�rbetal


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Guerbetaler <muesche2-swissrail@yahoo.de> wrote:

If you reread my message you will note that I spoke about "stories" that
can be verified and about persons with a wrong ticket (of the sort:
bought a ticket to Olten and boarded the train to Luzern).
People boarding with the wrong ticket will not be fined. Buying a
"Streckenwechsel" is still possible on board.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Heléna Moretti
<helena.moretti@btinternet.com> wrote:
As for the debate on the strict application of the new penalty fares for Swiss transport users, to place such a rule in the hands of mere mortals is a little unfair of the authorities. They ask their inspectors to judge a stranger or hide behind a rule book when it is plain to see what the easiest course of action is. The aim is to stop fare dodgers and save taxes, the principle that results is that you (as a passenger) are totally responsible for ensuring you have a valid ticket and all the supporting documents you need before you step on a train. The result of strict adherence to the rule and its principles are you alienate many to punish the few.
I don't understand what you are getting at with the above paragraph. I
think it is very fair to the conductors that they are no longer
required to make difficult judgement calls, and can just apply the
rules. Let customers service debate with the passengers.
I doubt that the strickt application will alienate many, as people are
quite used to having tickets before boarding the train. The rule
already existed for local trains.

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 17:10, schrieb Krist van Besien:
People boarding with the wrong ticket will not be fined.
I'm sorry, that's not true. It depends on what the mistake was and how much the ticket inspector believes the story...

Markus, G�rbetal


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 05:50, schrieb Dave Edmondston:
I was told recently by a DB conductor (Singen -> Lindau) that CH
Halbtax entitles me to 25% discount on DE tickets - don't know if
this is just for journeys starting in der Schweiz or what, haven't
really investigated yet.
Yes, it's on international tickets only. Valid with Halbtax and GA.

Markus, G�rbetal


Max Wyss
 

I dont think that an on-going debate on security in the Channel Tunnel is relevant to this group but in closing, a fully loaded Eurostar train carries approx 794 passengers who might have different views to you even if you do not care if a terrorist attack occurs. A car or coach shuttle carries a fraction of that number of passengers.
Not really, because if you want to hit a "symbol" you don't hit an
Eurostar, you hit the channel tunnel.


The security regime for the Channel tunnel is/was determined by an Inter-Governmental Safety Commission and the security services for both countries.
Yep, you nail the name of the committee who appears to have fun
creating more and more rules to harass passengers. In this respect, it
is unfair to attack Eurostar because of that stooooopid 90 minutes
layover in Lille they have planned for the direct Southern France to
London service… imagine the train idling for NINETY minutes in Lille;
essentially for the time to get to London and back).


The reason that terrorist groups have not considered such an attempt is precisely because of the security regime you see, and the security regime you dont see.
See above. there are much better targets than an Eurostar. And if the
target is the Cahnnel tunnel, you simply ship some freight on a truck.
Remember, the two events causing serious damage and interruption to
the channel tunnel originated on truck shuttles.

I don't know but has the IGC ever published any reports about the
success of that security theater??? Probably not, and, IMHO, with good
reasons for them. Their reason to be could be threatened.

Max.


martinbaumann112 <martinbaumann112@...>
 

The German Zugführer checked my Swiss Pass between Basel Bad and SBB when I boarded EC100 at the former on 08.01.2010. (Swiss Pass is valid on all trains btween the two stations without supplement)

Martin Baumann 07.02.2013


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:56 PM, tudoryork <tudoryork@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

How do you know terrorists have not contemplated targeting the Channel Tunnel?
I don't know. What I do know however is that any measure that means
that terrorists only have to change tactics or targets is basically
pointless.
Anyway, this is of topic. I'd suggest you read what the well know
security expert Bruce Schneier has to say on the subject:
http://www.schneier.com/essay-330.html
"It's not even a fair game. It's not that the terrorist picks an
attack and we pick a defense, and we see who wins. It's that we pick a
defense, and then the terrorists look at our defense and pick an
attack designed to get around it. Our security measures only work if
we happen to guess the plot correctly. If we get it wrong, we've
wasted our money."

Read the whole.
We've been wasting a lot of money...

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Krist van Besien
 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Nick Raven <Nightrocker79@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
An example could be someone travelling to a given station by Post Bus or town bus/tram and then taking an onward connection by rail - on paper the connection works well (say 5 minutes connection), but in practice may not work if there is a queue to buy tickets.
In Switzerland it is often possible to buy a single ticket covering
the whole trip. You can buy a combined postauto - train ticket...

Krist

--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bern, Switzerland


Andrew Moglestue
 

In Switzerland it is often possible to buy a single ticket covering
the whole trip. You can buy a combined postauto - train ticket...

Can  you board the Postauto in, say, Beromünster, and ask the driver to sell you a ticket to Saas Fee?

I doubt it.

And if it is possible, how broadly is the fact known?
Us rail fans knowing of some special tricks may be one thing. For your average local or even tourist to understand that is something different.


OL.Guerbetal
 

Am 07.02.2013 20:17, schrieb Andrew Moglestue:
Can you board the Postauto in, say, Berom�nster, and ask the driver
to sell you a ticket to Saas Fee?
The standard answer is yes. The special answer might be, that the "Tarifverbund" in Berom�ster has defined restricted possibilities.

For some time it wasn't possible to buy a ticket to Saas Fee at many railway stations in the region of Bern, because the "Libero Tarifverbund" was not ready with a software for the new ticket vending machines, that could sell tickets outside the Libero.

So, there is not an important difference between railway and bus, but there is an important difference between the three groups:
a) distinct tariff for one company only (seldom today)
b) part of the national tariff
c) regional tariff applying

BUT all this should not be the problem of the passenger, should it?
However, it IS!

Markus, G�rbetal


Jools39
 

An interesting debate.

One thing that has not been mentioned is what to do when the ticket examiner makes a mistake or does not understand the ticket and issues a fine. I would refuse to pay this. Get the police by all means but I will not pay a fine when I have a valid ticket.

This has happened to others who paid the fine, and in my opinion the refund of the fine is not a satisfactory outcome. I feel that compensation would be in order too. This should cover any interest and any mental anguish caused. Laugh by all means, but I would not be happy to be accused of something that I was not guilty of in front of a potentially coach full of people.

Sometimes those of us who use certain tickets regularly do know more about them than the on board staff.


Bill Bolton
 

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 05:41:14 +0100, Krist wrote:

One of the problems SBB faces is that there are professional fare
evaders out there that are very good at impersonating a honest, but
confused person, with a sad story.
So, if they are "professional" fare evaders, it should be quite simple
to identify them and treat them appropriately given all the technology
that it is asserted a SBB conductor has access to..... instead of
penalising ordinary citizens in the ways detailed by numrous posters
here already.

Or else, that's just another hollow justification for draconian
treatement of passengers (aka customers).

Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia