Chaes Express Question


csipromo
 

I have a question about the Basel to Brig Chäs Express. Did it run as a inland train or did it compose the inland portion of an international train?
I was trying to figure out whether it would be solely made up of BLS rolling stock plus the SBB WR or was it the SBB WR plus a few coaches which were attached to either through coaches (from Germany, etc) or coaches from Basel SBB which were to continue past Brig through the Simplon to points in Italy?

I have not found any consistent photos which would suggest a definite consist for this train. Some show EWI, some show RIC SBB coaches and some show a mix of SBB and BLS coaches. It is further complicated in that not all photos are of the Chäs Express on that particular route.

Thanks for any information.

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 19.02.2021 um 07:31 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I have a question about the Basel to Brig Chäs Express. Did it run as
a inland train or did it compose the inland portion of an
international train?
There were three such coaches 88-33 700-702 (1989, 91, 93) with 2 in daily use. They were attached to very different consists. And at that time Lötschberg trains were often a "wild" mix of coaches. Withdrawn in 2001. It should be noted that the Bpm 51 (ex Bm) were widely used as additional coaches in national connections. If you see them next to EW4, it's not an international train.

https://www.sguggiari.ch/4_collezione.php?ref=2598&gallery=08.11.2020&lingua=de

Is there any specific year you are interested in? I can dig out the timetables.

Markus, Gürbetal


George Raymond
 

My father and I once had a fondue in one of the service's diners, which was painted to look like a giant piece of cheese.

George


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Andy
 

... once had a fondue in one of the service's diners, which was
painted to look like a giant piece of cheese.
The diner or the fondue?


Guerbetaler
 

Am 19.02.2021 um 13:08 schrieb Andy:
... once had a fondue in one of the service's diners, which was painted to look like a giant piece of cheese.
The diner or the fondue?
Swiss Fondue always looks like cheese, Mister.

Markus, ;-)


csipromo
 

I am specifically speaking about the original route between Basel SBB and Brig via Bern, Spiez and the Lötschberg.
I was trying to figure out if that train was a domestic train between Basel and Brig or whether it may have been the domestic segment of an international run.
Would this train perhaps have included a number of coaches which might continue on through the Simplon into Italy?
I know that there were some trains which travelled along the Lötschberg, which were combined with segments from the Rhone valley (Geneva) in Brig for the rest of the run south.

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 19.02.2021 um 18:04 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I was trying to figure out if that train
My problem is, that there wasn't "that" train, but "those" trains. So I wondered, which one of "thoese" trains would be of special interest.

Markus, Gürbetal


John Jesson
 

Mike,

I have a photo of one of the ChäsExpress vehicles approaching Bern on
the Aare bridge. It is the 2nd vehicle in the train. First vehicle is a
Russian sleeping car. Other coaches in the train are all EWIV type. It
was taken in September 1992, when I think the Russian vehicle only went
as far as Bern (but it may have been Lausanne).

Unfortunately, this doesn't really answer your original question. Yes,
with the Russian sleeper, it could be described as an international
train, but it's more likely to be an internal train with the Russian
coach added as a through vehicle.

Best wishes,

John


Guerbetaler
 

I tried to find out, in which trains the Chäs Expresses were used. It's not so simple... I can't find a full list of train numbers.

EA 7/89 ... Bediente Züge: 1804 Bern—Brig, 816 Brig—Basel, 827 Basel—Brig, 834 Brig—Basel und 745 Basel—Bern.

EA 3/90 Der seit dem 28. Mai 1989 zwischen Basel—Bern—Brig verkehrende «Chäs-Express» (EA 7/89) ist ein voller Erfolg (Bilanz von BLS, SBB, Minibuffet AG und Käseunion: «Die Reisenden sind begeistert, und der Käse rollt!>).

EA 5/91 Minibuffet Ab Fahrplanwechsel werden auf der Linie Basel—Brig beide teilweise geänderten Speisewagenumläufe mit «Chäs-Express»
bedient, die «Restobar» entfällt. (Die Züge sind im Offiziellen Kursbuch im grün gedruckten Teil unter «Speisen beim Reisen» aufgeführt.)

EA 8/91 Die BLS-Restobar BR 450 ex BT (EA 11/86) wurde ausrangiert; Ersatz durch den zweiten Chäs-Express-Wagen (EA 3/91).

EA 4/92 Ab Mitte Dezember wird die Minibuffet AG zwei weitere herkömmliche WR einsetzen: je einen zwischen Chur und Basel sowie am Lötschberg. Letzterer ist in den Zügen 1823/1832 der erste Speisewagen in einem Schnellzug Bern—Brugg—Zürich seit der Einführung des Taktfahrplanes vor zehn Jahren. Die WR «Chäs-Express» erhalten teilweise neue Umläufe.

EA 4/93 Alle »Chäsexpress» rollen zwischen Brig und Basel mit einem Abstecher in 1807/1818 nach Zürich Flughafen, dagegen verkehrt
in 1823/1832 kein Speisewagen mehr.

EA 5/94 In den IC 252/255 gelangt April—Oktober erstmaIs ein «Chäs-Express» auf die Gotthardstrecke. Der Halbstunden-IC 909 Bern—Zürich
übernimmt vom Schnellzug 1807 den «Chäs-Express».

EA 7/94 Weitere neue Speisewageneinsätze sind ein WR McDonalds in 523/538 Genve—Romanshorn, April—Oktober ein WR Chäsexpress in
255/252 Basel—Chiasso

EA 4/95 Im 344/345 Basel—Nice rollt bis Chiasso ganzjährig ein WR mit (südwärts ein «Chäs-Express«). Von den «Chäs-Express« rollt je einer am
Lötschberg mit einem nachmittäglichen Abstecher nach Zürich Flughafen, Bern—Basel—Chiasso—Zürich—Bern sowie zwischen Bern, Zürich, Basel
und Chur.

EA 7/96 Da Le Buffet Suisse sein Depot Bern aufgehoben hat, mussten die in Bern startenden Speisewagen gestrichen werden, darunter der WR «Chäsexpress» auf der BLS (von denen nurmehr zwei eingesetzt werden)
und die Wagen in den Schnellzügen Bern—Brugg—Zürich.

EA 11/96 Eine späte Korrektur: Entgegen EA 7/96 verkehrt nicht am Lötschberg, sondern am Gotthard kein WR-Chäsexpress mehr, der Wagen am Lötschberg wird neu von Brig aus eingesetzt.

EA 6/97 Mitropa Auch die WR «Chäs-Express» erhalten ein graues Schrägband mit der Betreiberbezeichnung (EA 5/97).

EA 9/97 Der Einsatz der WR «Chäsexpress» ist aus unerfindlichen Gründen nicht einmal mehr in der Speisewagen-Broschüre aufgeführt: 2 Wagen werden in den Zügen 864/887 Brig—Basel, 975/972 Basel—Bern sowie 662/257 Chiasso—Basel, 767/782 Basel—Chur eingesetzt, einer ist Reserve.

EA 4/99 Am Gotthard wird der Einsatz der verschiedenen lnland-WR
Typen neu geordnet: WR III Chiasso 662 Basel 255 Chiasso, WR »Chäs-Express» Chiasso 386 Schaffhausen 381 Chiasso, WR EW 1 «Calandaland» Basel 1863 Zürich 383 Chiasso 382 Zürich 1890 Basel; die bisherigen Einsätze der WR «Calandaland» Chur—Basel entfallen ersatzlos.

EA 7/99 Je ein WR «Chäs-Express» läuft in Brig 864 Basel 975 Bern 972 Basel 887 Brig sowie Chiasso 386 Schaffhausen 18363 Singen 381 Chiasso. Ein ganz neuer Speisewagendienst wird mit einem WR EW IV in Basel 871 Brig 878 Basel 783 Chur 468 Basel aufgezogen.

EA 9/99 Der WR »Chäsexpress» am IC 972 Bern—Basel wird leer
am Schluss hinter der Re 460 des EW IV-Pendels überführt.

EA 7/00 Je ein WR «Chäs-Express» läuft in Brig 864 Basel 975 Bern
972 Basel 887 Brig sowie Chiasso 386 Schaffhausen 18363 Singen 381 Chiasso.

EA 1/01 Die WR EW 1 «Calandaland» und «Chäs-Express» werden nicht mehr eingesetzt.


csipromo
 

Thanks for the very detailed research and information.
Most of the photos that I had seen were dated between 1988 and 1994.
I was specifically looking for information on the original deployment of the WR, prior to the conversion of additional units, while the model appeared as rendered by Piko for the 2020 model release, meaning when the coach had a dark gray band with the inscription Chäs Express Restaurant Fromage Express prior to any Buffet Suisse or Mitropa labels being added.

In many of the photos I have seen, the WR is at the front/end of the train. I was wondering whether it the train ran the full route as such or whether additional coaches were added at any point. The RZD sleeper (Moscow-Basel-Bern) which used to bring diplomats and diplomatic mail is one example.

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 20.02.2021 um 01:59 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
I was specifically looking for information on the original
deployment of the WR, prior to the conversion of additional units
Am 19.02.2021 um 22:00 schrieb Guerbetaler:
EA 7/89 ... Bediente Züge: 1804 Bern—Brig, 816 Brig—Basel, 827 Basel—Brig, 834 Brig—Basel und 745 Basel—Bern.
EA 3/90 Der seit dem 28. Mai 1989 zwischen Basel—Bern—Brig
verkehrende «Chäs-Express» (EA 7/89) ist ein voller Erfolg (Bilanz
von BLS, SBB, Minibuffet AG und Käseunion: «Die Reisenden sind
begeistert, und der Käse rollt!>).
EA 5/91 Minibuffet Ab Fahrplanwechsel werden auf der Linie
Basel—Brig beide teilweise geänderten Speisewagenumläufe mit
«Chäs-Express» bedient, die «Restobar» entfällt. (Die Züge sind im
Offiziellen Kursbuch im grün gedruckten Teil unter «Speisen beim
Reisen» aufgeführt.)
Only one WR was 28.05.1989 - 01.06.1991 or timetables 89/90 and 90/91

I copy the entries from the through coach section of the Kursbuch

1989/90

1804 Bern - Brig
WR Bern - Brig
1-2 Bern - Brig - (225) Milano - Venezia

816 Brig - Basel
WR Brig - Basel

827 Basel - Bern - Brig
WR Basel - Brig
1-2 Bern - Brig - (321) Milano

834 Brig - Basel
WR Brig - Basel

745 Basel - Interlaken Ost
WR Basel - Bern

1990/91

1804 Bern - Brig
WR Bern - Brig
1-2 Bern - Brig - (425) Milano

816 Brig - Basel
WR Brig - Basel

827 Basel - Bern - Brig
WR Basel - Brig
1-2 Bern - Brig - (321) Milano

834 Brig - Basel
WR Brig - Basel
1-2 Brig - Bern - (2238) Biel
* 27.05-21.10, 04.05.-01.06. + (C) 22.12.-01.04 + (1) 07.01.-18.03.

745 Basel - Interlaken Ost
WR Basel - Bern


csipromo
 

Thanks

Mike C


csipromo
 

I found a couple of useful videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_kZRl9n4Vg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z74tQNMV3D8

Videos filmed around 1990

Regards

Mike C


csipromo
 

Anybody has any idea where that lonely DB WLABm might have been heading to or coming from?

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 21.02.2021 um 07:44 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
Anybody has any idea where that lonely DB WLABm might have been heading to or coming from?
If you are speaking about the WLABm visible in part 2/2 at 07:03 departure from Kandersteg, it's clearly an SBB sleeping car. SBB had 10 WLABm Universal.
  • 71 85 71-70 913 - 917 ex DSG (numbered as private coaches) 51 80 06-80 313 - 317; they were financed by SBB for DSG and when DSG and CIWLT stopped to have their own coaches they came to SBB. Withdrawn 2007.
  • In 1988 SBB bought some additional WLABm from DB, 71 85 71-70 809, 812, 813, 814, 820. Withdrawn/sold 1995/96.

There were sleeping car connections, starting 19:01 and 20:01 from Brig

  • Brig - Oostende and Dortmund, Winter also Amsterdam (844/499/811)
  • Brig - Hamburg (840/1812)  Brig - Dortmund

So  the most likely scenario is an empty move from Olten to Brig for use in one of the two connections. But I miss the through coaches to Milano, which should be in this train. Unless...

Another train not following the plans is visible in part 2/2 at 2:27 in Frutigen coming in from Brig. You can see the Chäs-Express and an international portion Milano - Bern. The station clock showing 15:55 this could be train 830 in 1988/89 timetable, thus before the official start of Chäs-Express. Normally booked for this train was BLS' own BR 450 (ex-BT). Thus we must assume that the Chäs-Express made it's first moves replacing BR 450.

Some other observations: You can see green BLS EW I. They existed until 1991 for A and 1992 for B.

The usual consist of BLS EW IV (introduced 1987) was D-A-A-B-B-B. You can see at some places that there was an EW I, even a green one, instead of an EW IV. That was quite frequent, as BLS didn't have a reserve. The D ex-SNCF arrived in 1990.

Markus, Gürbetal


Guerbetaler
 

Am 21.02.2021 um 20:36 schrieb Guerbetaler:
Another train not following the plans is visible in part 2/2 at 2:27 in Frutigen coming in from Brig. You can see the Chäs-Express and an international portion Milano - Bern. The station clock showing 15:55 this could be train 830 in 1988/89 timetable, thus before the official start of Chäs-Express. Normally booked for this train was BLS' own BR 450 (ex-BT). Thus we must assume that the Chäs-Express made it's first moves replacing BR 450.
You might also wonder why a train from Milano, arriving in Frutigen at four o'clock in the afternoon, would have night coaches with it. Probably they came empty, because
- they didn't run North because of a strike
- suffered an important delay within Italy and passengers returned in other trains from Milano
- went South as additional weekend capacity

I'm not sure about a Summer weekend train leaving Bern at 21:28 and continuing on Fridays to Ancona - Pescara (24.06.-19.08.) and on Saturdays to Ancona (25.06.-06.08.). I can only find a train working North arriving in Bern on Sundays at 06:02 (26.06-21.08). Thus the Ancona coaches might have returned empty regularly.

Markus