Looking for Information regarding consists with SBB Re 4/4I on Bodensee-Toggenburg and SOB lines between 1968 and 1985


csipromo
 

Does anybody have any specific information on the consists hauled by SBB Re 4/4I on the BT or SOB lines between 1968 and 1975.
I seem to remember seeing them pass by our place in Wollerau while I was living there.

This was after I came back to Canada:
http://www.polier.ch/images/archiv/Sutter/normal/SBB/110/SBB.111/SBB-111-005.jpg
http://www.polier.ch/images/archiv/Sutter/normal/SBB/110/SBB.111/SBB-111-017.jpg

I am trying to remember if this also included the Konstanz-Rigi Express

I am trying to get an idea of what non push-pull consists may have operated on the SOB/BT network, during that period, but also up to the merger and the Voralpen Express.

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 06.02.2021 um 23:33 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
Does anybody have any specific information on the consists hauled by
SBB Re 4/4I on the BT or SOB lines between 1968 and 1975.
SBB Re 4/4 I of the second series (10027-50) had been in use on the BT lines until 1982, for regional trains Romanshorn - Rapperswil and Wil - Nesslau. They were not normally used on the SOB lines with their 5% grades, as they didn't have an electric brake.

They pulled two types of consists:

until 1971 (delivery of BT BD 511-518):
- BT D2 - BT AB - BT B (- BT or SBB B)
- SBB D3 - SBB AB - SBB B (- BT or SBB B)
IIRC the maximum consist on peak hours was seven coaches. Both SBB and BT used all types of light steel, EW I and SBB also EW II coaches in these consists. BT had, on occasions, consists with three green/cream coaches and a green D2. They were also pulled by BT Be 4/4 and SBB Ae 3/6.

after 1971 (delivery of BT BD 511-518):
- BT BD - BT AB - BT B - BT B (- BT or SBB B)
- SBB D - SBB AB - SBB B - SBB B (- BT or SBB B)
After 1973 BT had no more green/cream AB, thus only single bicolour B could be in the consists.

For some years there was a three-day diagram that included SBB and BT consists. Thus the same train had SBB or BT coaches depending on the day. One diagram day was Rapperswil - Linthal.

At that time mutual use of vehicles was done basing on axle-km. SBB Coaches had to do as many axle-km on BT as BT coaches did on SBB. BT-owned were Romanshorn - Wattwil and Wattwil - Nesslau. Wattwil - Wil and Wattwil - Rapperswil was SBB, but trains always went through.

Through trains BT/SBB/SOB, say (Romanshorn -) St. Gallen - Rapperswil - Arth-Goldau (- Luzern) were in the hands of BDe 4/4-push-pull consists until 1982. However, SOB had two consists and owned two BDe 4/4. Whenever a repair or revision was due, Re 4/4 III 41 had to step in. Then it could happen that the Re 4/4 III pulled a driving trailer. For some years Re 4/4 III was in a fix diagram that came to St. Gallen once a day in the evening. The minimum consist was BT BD - SBB AB EW II- SOB B EW I. Another possible replacement for BDe 4/4 was ABe 4/4 71 with a BD (231-32). All this ended in 1979, when BDe 4/4 83-87 were delivered.


This was after I came back to Canada:
http://www.polier.ch/images/archiv/Sutter/normal/SBB/110/SBB.111/SBB-111-005.jpg

This photo was taken a few km from where I then lived (Degersheim). It was taken in 1972. The BD was only delivered in 1971 and the AB was painted plain green in 1973. Re 4/4' 10033 and 34 got TEE colours early 1972, when they were needed for Bavaria, after the derailment of RAm 501 in 1971. One locomotive did the Bavaria, the other one was used on any diagram, quite often on the BT trains. Consist is Re 4/4' 10033 or 34, SBB B EW I, BT B 321 and 322, BT AB EW I (251-54), BT BD (511-18)

http://www.polier.ch/images/archiv/Sutter/normal/SBB/110/SBB.111/SBB-111-017.jpg

Re 4/4' 10033 or 34, 2 BT B EW I (361-67), next (hidden) must be a BT AB and a BT BD.

See also SBB 111-022 on the BT track from Herisau in St. Gallen
http://www.polier.ch/page/archiv/Sutter/normal/SBB/110/SBB.111.htm

Markus


Martin Baumann
 

On 16.07.1986 I travelled from St Gallen to Luzern on train 2672 Romanshorn-Luzern which was BT BDe 4/4 52. I did not then note trailers in a consist but I think it was a 4 car unit


Guerbetaler
 

Am 07.02.2021 um 14:48 schrieb Martin Baumann:
On 16.07.1986 I travelled from St Gallen to Luzern on train 2672
Romanshorn-Luzern which was BT BDe 4/4 52. I did not then note
trailers in a consist but I think it was a 4 car unit
Yes, after May 1982 all four consists were BDe-B-B-ABt. One of them was in a diagram together with an equal consist of SOB. Probaly on 17.07.1986 that same train would have been formed of SOB vehicles. The third consist for the two-hourly through trains was SBB RBe-B-AB-BDt. On Sundays it happened that an Re 4/4" was in front in MU and six or seven coaches behind the BDt. I can't tell the year exactly but the RBe was soon replaced with Re 4/4" without driving trailer.

When the BT Re 4/4 91-96 arrived, the BDe went out. On the SOB side they were replaced with Re 4/4 III 41-44. 1988 St. Gallen - Luzern was all locomotives.

Markus


csipromo
 

At some point between 1972 and 1979, EAV ABe 4/4 71 was rebuilt into a BDe 4/4, increasing the number of such consists that the SOB could offer.
The pair of De 4/4 were also used for some trains. Service to Einsiedeln from Biberbrugg was often old generation ABe 4/4. There were however, not enough pilot coaches for use in all the trains.
We used to watch the trains run through Wollerau and up along Erlenstrasse on their way to Samstagern or back. Today, what was then fields are now built up and you can no longer see the train line from where we used to observe them from.

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 08.02.2021 um 03:38 schrieb csipromo via groups.io:
At some point between 1972 and 1979, EAV ABe 4/4 71 was rebuilt into
a BDe 4/4, increasing the number of such consists that the SOB could
offer.
That was only after delivery of BDe 83-87, in 1979.

The pair of De 4/4 were also used for some trains. Service to
Einsiedeln from Biberbrugg was often old generation ABe 4/4. There
were however, not enough pilot coaches for use in all the trains.
Only De 4/4 22 still had a driving trailer, Bt 251, which was green. ABt 201, that had been the driving trailer for De 21, was adapted for BDe 81 in 1959. After delivery of the new ABt 204-208 (19787/79), it was for some time used as intermediate coach De 22 - ABt 201 - Bt 251 (picture in EA 11/81). 1989, both driving trailers were rebuilt for use with the modernized ABe 4/4 11-14 and painted orange.

Markus


csipromo
 

As far as what I recall. In 1985, one of the ABt (1940s) was used with De 4/4. The other was used with ABe 4/4.
I spent one afternoon in Wollerau on that trip, before heading up to Samstagern and then back down to Waedenswil to get back to Zurich.
I managed to ride on one of the BDe 4/4 (1959) twice on that trip and one of the BDe 4/4 (1979) for the trip down to Waedenswil. On the trip down to Waedenswil, I managed to get the seat in the front, which was cool.


Martin Baumann
 

On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 04:27 PM, csipromo wrote:


As far as what I recall. In 1985, one of the ABt (1940s) was used with De 4/4
Marcus will confirm but I think that would be Bt 204 ex ABt 204 built as first 202 by SWS in 1945 (Second 202 SWS 1966 was EW I for the BDe 4/4)


csipromo
 

As far as I remember, there were two of them, probably dating back to the 1940s. I remember seeing one with a De 4/4 in Samstagern. I don't remember if it was 21 or 22. The second one I spotted a few days later with an ABe 4/4 in Biberbrugg.

Regards

Mike C


Guerbetaler
 

Am 08.02.2021 um 19:03 schrieb Martin Baumann:
On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 04:27 PM, csipromo wrote:
As far as what I recall. In 1985, one of the ABt (1940s) was used
with De 4/4. The other was used with ABe 4/4.
Marcus will confirm but I think that would be Bt 204 ex ABt 204 built
as first 202 by SWS in 1945 (Second 202 SWS 1966 was EW I for the
BDe 4/4)
I'm sorry to say so, but memory doesn't always reproduce facts, it rather mixes up facts of different events. I didn't try to answer from my memory, I searched for the facts. One fact is the photo in EA 11/84 by Hans Heinrich Isler dated 1984-09-28 that shows De 4/4 22 with ABt 201 and Bt 251.

Another fact is the rebuilding date of ABt 201 1989-03 to orange ABt 252 and Bt 251 1989-08 to orange ABt 251, both later renumbered 50 47 38-03 930 and 931 and scrapped 2001/2004.

The history:

In 1944 BT and SOB bought SBB RFe 4/4 601-603 and converted them to Fe 4/4 BT 51, later 25 and SOB 22 and 21. They were re-geared to 90 km/h instead of 125 km/h. Nevertheless their maximum load on 5% was two coaches.

SOB purchased in 1945 two light steel driving trailers BCt4ü 201-202, to form push-pull sets, using their centre entrance wooden C4ü 211-212. One year later they were replaced with light steel C4ü 213-214, another C4ü 215 followed in 1948 and a BC4ü 205 in 1949.

De 4/4 22 suffered a fire damage in 1945 and when repaired it got a regenerative electric brake (instead of a rheostatic or dynamic brake). As a consequence, BCt 202 could only work with 22, 201 with 21. When SOB purchased a CFe 4/4 in 1949 with regenerative brake, it got number 62, because it could work together with BCt 202. This motor coach was sold to Styria in 1968 (StmLB ET 13). I have never seen a photo showing 62 working with 202.

1956 classes changed C > B, B > A and 1963 F > D

1959 SOB got the first BFe 4/4 81 but couldn't afford new coaches. Thus they adapted ABt 201 and B 214 (plus Br 241) to work with this new motor coach. Subsequently Fe 4/4 21 couldn't be used for push-pull operation any more. At this occasion, first and second class compartments were exchanged. Three windows first class became a comfortable second class and six windows second class took four compartments of first class.

1966 first class of ABt 202 was reclassified second and the coach was renumbered Bt 204. After that date ist was combined with AB 205 instead of B 213 to form a push-pull consist with De 4/4 22.

At delivery of ABt 204-08 (1978-79) numbers changed:
Bt 204 > Bt 251
AB 205 > AB 261

Markus, Gürbetal